Tråden där vi försöker ge scientologerna en chans!

Jag hittade en artikel om en kille som har blivit hjälpt av scientologi:
https://imgur.com/a/sLKriLe

Lars Olsson i Artikeln kände jag på åttiotalet när jag var med i Scientologikyrkan, han var en genomgod människa men hans vinster och andras vinster i Scientologin imponerar inte på mig, för dom ligger på en trivial nivå!

Det är inte bara Penthouse, han har yttrat sig lite varstans under åren!
Han skrev bland annat en Book med Bent Corydon; "L Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman?
Finns gratis här!
http://www.xenu.net/archive/books/mom/Messiah_or_Madman.txt

Under Clearwater hearings 1982 vittnade han mot sin far, en film här på cirka 1 timme!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elFdBCldOz4

Tack! ledde vidare till en lång playlist där de vittnar om kulten, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQvvgPQJJCA&list=PLB8A8C6C0BFB607D1&index= 4

sonen berättar b-la att hans farsa var involverad i en hel del rättsfall under 50-talet samt att han troligen var verksam pedofil "men på den tiden var det inte lika öppet att tala om sånt och säga typ att man är homosexuell" säger han. verkar genuin!

jag har ingen respekt för satans religioner. och alla avtal/rubriker eller whatever som du hittar på som säger att jag ska bete mig på ett visst sätt, säger jag bara: KÖR UPP DEM DÄR SOLEN INTE LYSER!

ni har chans att omvända er. Jesus har gett oss fri vilja!

edit , i det här vittnesmålet säger en, troligen fd medlem, att "han såg Jesus och sen ville han ut"

https://youtu.be/kQvvgPQJJCA?list=PLB8A8C6C0BFB607D1&t=1979

Tack för artikeln, kul att läsa!

Angående hans vinster, så kan man fundera över i vilken utsträckning han uppnått Grad 0 (utifrån det han säger i artikeln), men å andra sidan fick hans arbetskollegor i och med intervjun snart reda på hans Scientologi-engagemang.


I övrigt föreligger ingen avsikt att invalidera några av hans vinster, varken då eller eventuella vinster senare.

Jag har inte hittat på trådrubriken, och jag har inte hittat på forumets regler.


https://www.flashback.org/regler

---

Skapar vi en tråd som heter något i stil med

"Tråden där vi kritiserar scientologin utifrån kristen tro"
"Tråden där vi kritiserar scientologin utifrån en tro på Jesus"
"Tråden där vi kritiserar scientologin utifrån biblisk tro"

...eller något liknande, så är jag helt villig att diskutera där, gärna med respektfullt tonläge de som diskuterar emellan.

Det här är ett förarbete till mitt svar på OT3!

Det finns ju starka kopplingar mellan L. Ron Hubbard och Aliester Crowley som jag inte kan se några direkta fel med, det kanske finns fel på andra ställen men inte här åtminstone!

Det finns ju Änglar på några av Scientologikyrkans böcker, en av dom ärkeängeln Michael!
https://www.google.com/search?q=Scientology+8-8008&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjZkNOGzYTqAhVLtCoKHZhTCf8 Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Scientology+8-8008&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQEzoGCAAQBxAeUJZyWNFzYJ t4aABwAHgAgAE6iAFskgEBMpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1n &sclient=img&ei=T9LnXpmtG8voqgGYp6X4Dw&bih=975&biw =1920&safe=off

L. Ron Hubbards Affirmations
You are partly in her plane, she partly in yours as you wish to see her. She has copper red hair, long braids, a lovely Venusian face, a white gown belted with jade squares. She wears gold slippers. Thus you see her.
https://lermanet.org/exit/hubbard-admissions-psychiatric-eval.html


Letter: Jack Parsons to Aleister Crowley (1946)
Recently, he says, because of some danger, she has called the Archangel Michael to guard us…
https://scientology-research.org/letter-jack-parsons-to-aleister-crowley-1946/

L. Ron Hubbard Affirmations
(m) That I have only friendship for Jack Parsons.
(n) That I feel no wish for vengeance toward anyone. That I love people
and believe in honor and glory.
(o) That I believe in my gods and spiritual things.
(x) That my magical work is powerful and effective.
LRH: (d) Any distaste I may have for Jack Parsons originated in a
psychic experiment. Such distaste is foolish. He is my friend and
comrade-in-arms.

The Psychic experiment is the Babalon Working or as the Polish Scientologist Paul Tabaka called the Telemic Thetans Theophanies, as can be read in Black Magick and Betty above!
It was Sex-Magick and Parsons wanked off that is what I think Hubbard mean when he said that it was distasteful!


Soderqvist1: So what are they comrades-in arm about?

‘Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword’ by Jack Parsons. Chapter 1
“For numberless centuries society accepted the proposition that certain men were created to be slaves. Their natural function was to serve priests, kings and nobles, men of substance and property who were appointed slave-masters by almighty God. Against this doctrine, some two hundred years ago, rose the most astonishing heresy the world has yet seen; the principle of liberalism. In essence this principle stated that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights, which belong to every man as his birthright.

It seems necessary to redefine Freedom in the terms understood by Voltaire, Paine, Washington, Jefferson and Emerson. Freedom is a two-edged sword of which one edge is liberty and the other, responsibility. Both edges are exceedingly sharp and the weapon is not suited to casual, cowardly or treacherous hands.
No man, no group and no nation has the right to any man's individual freedom. No matter how pure the motive, how great the emergency, how high the principle, such action is tyranny and is never justified. These rights must be counterbalanced by certain responsibilities. The liberal accepting them must guarantee these rights to all others at all times, regardless of his personal feelings or interests.”
http://www.paultoner.com/downloads/Jack%20Parsons%20-%20Freedom%20is%20a%20Two%20Edged%20Sword.pdf

How dangerous is Babalon, or the Scarlet woman to Men?

VI. The Woman Girt with a Sword John Whiteside Parsons
Somewhere in the world today there is a woman for whom the sword is forged. Somewhere there is one who has heard the trumpets of the new age, and who will respond. She will respond, this new woman, to the high clamor of those star trumpets; she will come as a perilous flame and a devious song, a voice in the judgment halls, a banner before armies. She will come girt with the sword of freedom, and before her kings and priests will tremble and cities and empires will fall, and she will be called BABALON, the scarlet woman.

For she will be lustful and proud; she will be subtle and deadly, she will be forthright and invincible as a naked blade. And women will respond to her war cry, and throw off their shackles and chains, and men will respond to her challenge, forsaking the foolish ways and the little ways, and she who will shine as the ruddy evening star in the bloody sunset of Gotterdamerung, will shine again as a morning star when the night has passed, and a new dawn breaks over the garden of Pan.

To you, oh unknown woman, the sword pledged. Keep the faith!
https://hermetic.com/parsons/index

Jack Parsons was a Ladies’ Man, and his Poetry is Beautiful!

The Creed of the Church of Scientology’ by L. Ron Hubbard:
“We of the Church believe:
That all men of whatever race, color or creed were created with equal rights.”
“That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives.”
“That the souls of men have the rights of men.”
“And we of the Church believe that the laws of God forbid man:”
“To destroy or enslave another's soul.”

Soderqvist: whatever its functionality, it is obvious to me that L. Ron Hubbard believed in Scientology!

Fortsättning följer nedan!

Jag kan hålla med dig om att OT3 hade en negativ påverkan på L. Ron Hubbard!
Men det finns en tidigare händelse runt 1945 som även det har påverkat hans mentala hälsa till det sämre och det är The Babalon Working Det är Jack Parsons som noterar det i ett brev till Marjorie Cameron! Han påverkades inte negativt av Babalon Working!

25 Jan 1950
I have the text of Dee's skrying in the 7th Aire, as he said "so terrified me that, beseeching God to have mercy upon me, I finally answer that I will from this day forward meddle no more herein." The voice, speaking from Kelly, resulted in a sinister dissociation of Kelly's personality. The parallel with my own working with Ron is appalling. After this Kelly robbed Dee, absconded with his wife, and developed a criminal confidence career. This is the voice:

In view of the fact that this MSS was unknown to Hubbard and I [sic], the parallelism is really extraordinary. I have found another prophecy in Khaled Khan which I shall send later.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060422141414/http://www.babalon.net/jwp/camltrs.html

Hubbard vidrör saken själv här i Bolivar Policy 1967 den 12 Februari att han var dysfunktionell en tid efter kriget!

Sidan 12
Not to compare with Bolivar but to show my understanding of this:
I once had a similar one. “I would keep going as long as I could and when I was
stopped I would then die.” This was a solution mild enough to state and really hard to
understand until you had an inkling of what I meant by keeping going. Meteors keep
going—very, very fast. And so did I. Then one day ages back I finally was stopped
after countless little stoppings by social contacts and family to prepare me culminating in a navy more devoted to braid than dead enemies and literally I quit. For a while I couldn’t get a clue of what was wrong with me. Life went completely unlivable until I found a new solution. So I know the frailty of these single solutions. Not to compare myself but just to show it happens to us all, not just Bolivars.
https://www.tep-online.info/laku/usa/reli/scien/SECRETDOX/1978_79.PDF

Hans närstående kände inte igen honom efter Andra Världskriget!
Betty är Saras smeknamn!

Bare-Faced Messiah, The Mystery of the missing Research page 133 - 134
On 14 April 1947, the long-suffering Polly filed for a divorce in Port Orchard, Washington, on the grounds of desertion and non-support. She was still unaware that her husband had 're-married'; she did not even know he was living with another woman. That situation was soon to change.

Three weeks after Polly set divorce proceedings in motion, Ron scandalized his family by moving into The Hilltop with Sara. 'It was an awful slap in the face for his mother,' said his Aunt Marnie. 'Hub and May deeply disapproved. It was very difficult for them as they had Polly and the children living with them. The family clammed up about it and never mentioned it. When Ron took Sara up to The Hilltop I said to my sister, "Well, we loved him as a child, Midgie, but he's a perfect stranger to us now."'

The family would have been even more shocked had they known that Ron had married Sara; only Ron's friend, Mac Ford, knew the truth and he kept quiet. 'I ran into Ron one evening when he was taking the children to the theatre in Bremerton,' Ford said. 'We hadn't seen each other since before the war and when we were talking in the lobby he mentioned something about marrying again. I thought it was strange because I knew that he was not divorced from Polly, but I did not say anything because I didn't want to get involved.'

Hubbard filed an agreement to the divorce on 1 June and an interlocutory decree was awarded on 23 June. Polly was given custody of the children, costs and $25 a month maintenance for each child. Knowing Ron, she did not cherish much hope of the maintenance payments arriving regularly, if at all.
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/bfm08.htm

All den här bakgrunden gör att L. Ron Hubbard skriver till Försvarsmakten 1947-10-15 i USA, och ber om psykiatrisk behandling och informerar att han går på medicinering, och är medveten om att han är alvarligt psykiskt störd, och självmordsbenägen!
http://www.xenu.net/archive/ronthenut/beg.htm

Det här går ju stick i stäv med vad Hubbard Säger i sin Filosofi!
https://www.lronhubbard.org/articles-and-essays/my-philosophy.html

Han fick ingen psykiatrisk behandling, så han försökte kurera sig själv med sina Affirmationer 1947, men Den Svenske Överpsykiatrikern Ulf Brettstam kommer till undsättning om än 60 år senare och analyserar hans Affirmationer steg för steg och kommer med en utvärdering i slutet av avhandlingen!
http://lermanet.org/exit/hubbard-admissions-psychiatric-eval.html

Överpsykiatriker Ulf Brettstam finns på Facebook!
Och här är hans hemsida om Scientologikyrkan!
http://ulf.ing-steen.se/BRETTSTAMS_DEBATTSIDOR/A_psychiatric_view_on_L_Ron_Hubbard.html

Det är normalt för Magiker att göra Affirmationer man behöver inte vara psykiskt störd för att gör det. Jack Parsons gör en sådan Affirmation här!

Analysis by a Master of the Temple of the Critical Nodes in the Experience of his Material Vehicle John Whiteside “Jack” Parsons
https://hermetic.com/parsons/analysis-by-a-master-of-the-temple

Allt det här går inte ihop med vad Hubbard säger i min Filosofi, Vilket gör att det finns skäl att ta upp saken i domstolsförhandlingarna i Kalifornien 1984!


Superior Court of The State of California Reporters' Daily Transcript (June 4, 1984) Page 4358

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, Mr. Young, have you seen the list of misrepresentations that Armstrong says that Mr. Hubbard made about himself?
It is exhibit double V in this case.
A Yes, I have.
Q And there is a notation in there that, “This officer has no neurotic tendencies whatsoever.”
MR. LITT: There is a note in here, an exhibit double V?
MR. FLYNN: Correct.
Q That is in “My Philosophy”; right?
A If you will show me the exact passage.
Q Naval records state, “This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies whatsoever.” That is the representation that Mr. Hubbard is making about himself that he says that is what the Naval records say; right?
A What you are showing me is a list of misrepresentations alleged by Gerry Armstrong, not Mr. Hubbard’s.
Q But are you familiar with the fact that Mr. Hubbard says that that is what his Naval records say?
A I missed you on that point. Is that what this documents says?
Q Have you looked through Mr. Hubbard’s Naval
4359
records?
A Yes, I have looked through the Veteran’s Administration records.
Q Have you looked through Mr. Hubbard’s representations about himself which are marked exhibits 500-A through 500-D?
4360
MR. LITT: Object; assumes facts not in evidence, that it has not been established that all of these documents are Mr. Hubbard’s representations about himself at all.
MR. FLYNN: Mr. Armstrong testified about this precise point.
THE COURT: I think there is evidence upon which you can infer that.
Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you read where Mr. Hubbard states about himself, saying that his Naval say, “This officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies whatsoever”?
Have you read where L. Ron Hubbard has said that about himself?
MR. LITT: What question is Mr. Young supposed to answer, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Have you seen that particular comment in any of Mr. Hubbard’s authorized biographies, biographies that have been authorized by Mr. Hubbard?
THE WITNESS: Something to that effect, Your Honor. But I still would prefer to have the exact exhibit.
4361
Q Well let me show you exhibit triple U dated October 15, 1947 where Mr. Hubbard says, “I cannot account for nor rise above long periods of moroseness and suicidal inclinations.”
And he is requesting psychiatric treatment; do you see that?
A Yes, I see it.
Q Signed by L. Ron Hubbard; is that correct?
A Appears to be.
Q Now when you were running around looking up Snake Thompson, did you consider that to be more important than whether or not Mr. Hubbard is mentally ill?
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/2526.php

L Ron Hubbards Affirmations behandlades också under rättegången
Plaintiff agrees to return the following:

(a) All originals and copies of the manuscript for the work "Excalibur" written by L. Ron Hubbard;
(b) All originals and copies of documents commonly known as the "Affirmations" written by L. Ron Hubbard;
http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50k/legal/a1/625.php

Here’s how Wright describes his conversation with Pfauth about Hubbard’s final weeks:
"Six weeks before the leader died, Pfauth hesitantly related, Hubbard called him into the bus. He was sitting in his little breakfast nook. “He told me he was dropping his body. He named a specific star he was going to circle. That rehabs a being. He told me he’d failed, he’s leaving,” Pfauth said. “He said he’s not coming back here to Earth. He didn’t know where he’d wind up.”

“How’d you react?” I asked.
“I got good and pissy-ass drunk,” Pfauth said. “Annie found me at five in the morning in my old truck, Kris Kringle, and I had beer cans all around me. I did not take it well.”
I mentioned the legend in Scientology that Hubbard will return.
“That’s bull crap,” Pfauth said. “He wanted to drop the body and leave. And he told me basically that he’d failed. All the work and everything, he’d failed.”

I had heard a story that Pfauth had built some kind of electroshock mechanism for Hubbard in the last month of his life. I didn’t know what to make of it, given Hubbard’s horror of electroshock therapy. Pfauth’s eyes searched the ceiling as if he were looking for divine help. He explained that Hubbard was having trouble getting rid of a body thetan. “He wanted me to build a machine that would up the voltage and basically blow the thetan away. You can’t kill a thetan but just get him out of there. And also kill the body.”

“So it was a suicide machine?”

“Basically.”
https://tonyortega.org/2016/07/11/scientology-founder-l-ron-hubbards-caretaker-and-friend-steve-sarge-pfauth-1945-2016/

L. Ron Hubbard was treated with anti-psychotic medication Vistaril in his last 2 year by his doctor the scientologist Gene Denk according to the Coroner’s Report page 4!
http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/

Swedish Senior Psychiatrist Ulf Brettstam’s statement about Hubbard and Vistaril!
http://www.xenu.net/archive/free_speech/200603-vistaril.html


Soderqvist: I think that ”body Thetan” he had problems with is his Guardian Engel a hallucination because of his mental illness! I think he felt betrayed by her and blamed all failures on her, yet it was he who wrote Fare Game etc.!
You cannot make sense of insanity!

Bent Corydon asked the world; L. Ron Hubbard Messiah or Madman?
My answer to that is; L. Ron Hubbard was a Mad-Messiah!
Or more exactly A paranoid schizophrenic as analyzed by Swedish Senior psychiatrist Ulf Brettstam as linked to his treatment of Hubbard’s Affirmations!

Ulf Brettstam har sagt på andra ställen att vistaril är modersubstansen till dom Neuroleptika vi har idag och Hubbard skulle behöva ett modernare preparat!

Hubbard påverkades negativt av OT3 på grund av att han var psykiskt störd!
Inte av materialet som sådant!

Crowley has ju inte nödvändigtvis det bästa ryktet i alla läger, varför kopplingen Hubbard-Crowley ibland används som någonting kompromenterade ifråga om Scientologin. Bara för att nämna ett välkänt exempel på någon slags erkännande av Crowley så har The Beatles med honom på omsalget till Sgt. Pepper's lonely hearts club band.

Det verkar dock inte som att Crowley uppskattade projektet med Babalon Working i någon större utsträckning:



Boken "The Book of Case Remedies" som gavs ut i november 1964 har följande citat:



The Empress är ett tarot-kort, det tredje kortet i den s.k. "stora arkanan". Hubbard nämner tarot i föreläsningsserien Philadelphia Doctorate Course ifrån 1952 (samma föreläsningsserie som han nämner Crowley i) :


Utifrån beskrivningen är det sannolikt att det är just Crowleys tarotkortlek som han har för sinnet i föreläsningen.


Man kan ana att denna del av Hubbards bakgrund eventuellt skiner igenom lite här och var i hans skrifter:





Detta nämns också i Handbook for Pre-clears 1979, men verkar vara bortredigerat i en del andra utgåvor:


Hubbard verkar ju också anse att ockulta praktiker kan påverka Scientologins resultat:



Jag har läst Affirmationerna tidigare, och vad mig beträffar personligen så lägger Brettstams kommentarer varken till eller drar ifrån något om min förståelse av Hubbard, det enda som detta säger något om är Brettstam.

Resultatet av Affirmationerna går att spåra i Hubbards skrifter, t.ex. Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, och i Handbook for Pre-Clears där följande innehåll ingår:


Det fanns kvar en del av Affirmationerna hos Hubbard även efter detta, men kanske visade det sig ifrån sin värre sida från och med OT III. Science of Survival är den tidigaste Dianetik-/Scientologi-boken (1951) som talar om tidigare liv, och Aleister Crowley trodde sig ha levt ett tidigare liv som den franske ockultisten Éliphas Lévi...detta är också något att väga in i sin synpunkt på bland annat OT III.



Jag har läst även denna text sedan tidigare.


Jag har inte särskilt mycket förtroende för Tony Ortega som källa, men detta kan mycket väl stämma.

Det är ett totalt arrogant och helt ogrundat påstående.
Vad har Tony Ortega skrivit som inte stämmer?

Upp till bevis eller kom inte med fler lika idiotiska påståenden.

Avsnittet om Steve Pfauth (Sarge) är från en intervju med honom som Lawrence Wright gjorde för boken Going Clear och det står exakt så som Ortega citerar i boken.

Du kan också se Steve Pfauth själv berätta om händelsen här, så vare sig Lawrence Wright eller Tony Ortega har hittat på det ur tomma luften:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=VpzU2x0PDD0&feature=emb_l ogo

En journalist ska rapportera vad andra har sagt, så om det är någon som du ska misstro så vore det snarare Steve Pfauth (Sarge) och inte journalisten. Enligt min erfarenhet så är Tony Ortega mycket noggrann med vad han skriver om och dubbelkollar och verifierar sina källor innan han publicerar.

Jag har läst hans blogg nästan varje dag och har ännu inte kommit på något som han "bara hittat på", så jag är väldigt nyfiken på vad för faktiska belägg du har för ditt påstående om att du inte särskilt mycket förtroende för Tony Ortega som källa.

Eller har du glömt det där med "Look, don't listen" och bara helt enkelt inte tittat efter?