2005-03-16, 15:12
  #685
Medlem
TB-303s avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
Då räknar du anatgligen också Anne Frank som någon som överlevde Auschwitz...
Jag gör det. Gör inte du det?
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
Höss hade någon gång fel på ett år. Än sen?
Från någon som vissa sätter så stor tilltro till i dessa frågor, så tycker jag ett år är ganska mycket. Vid tidpunkten då förhöret gjordes, är det bara frågan om ett par år tillbaka, och såpass borde en person som ska ha god insyn minnas.

Du har inte lite information om lägret Wolzek som Höss pratade om? Hur stort var det lägret, var fanns det, och användes gaskammare där också?
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:19
  #686
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Germar Rudolf berättar om det milt sagt märkliga sätt Auschwitzmuséet och Holocaustindustrin uppvisat när det kommer till att hantera forensiska undersökningar och deras resultat. Vad Auschwitzmuséet ägnar sig år är uppenbarligen endast icke-vetenskaplig propaganda, döljande av ovälkomna fakta och den gemenaste personförföljelse av dem som inte viker undan sitt historievetenskapliga ansvar, som Rudolf:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/4.html

Citat:
"---In 1966, the Auschwitz State Museum commissioned the Polish company Hydrokop to drill into the soil of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp and to analyze the samples. It is not known whether this research was done in the context of the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial. The results, however, vanished into the museum's archives: they have never been released, which by itself is revealing enough. Years later, however, several pages from this report were photocopied and sent to the German revisionist publisher Udo Walendy, who published them with commentary in an issue of his periodical.[86] Traces of bones and hair allegedly found at several places might indicate mass graves. The few pages published by Walendy, however, do not reveal whether these findings led to an excavation or a subsequent forensic study of the traces. It is not even evident whether the bone and hair samples collected are human or animal remains.

4.4.2.2. Faurisson and the Consequences

As a result of Prof. Faurisson's activities as described in chapter 3., forensic research on Auschwitz boomed since 1988. Each time a researcher came to a conclusion contradicting the widely held views, he was socially ostracized and persecuted, like Prof. Faurisson, Fred Leuchter, and Germar Rudolf, but when the results confirmed the reigning paradigms, the researchers were darlings of the media and politicians, like Jean-Claude Pressac, the researchers from the Jan-Sehn-Institute in Cracow, and more recently Prof. Robert van Pelt.[69]

It must therefore be stated that forensic research on Auschwitz is not at all reprehensible, as stated by the Max-Planck-Institute in Stuttgart. Such research was always done, more or less intensively. What is often considered to be reprehensible, however, is a research result that is unwanted by the public. This is an unfortunate bias, because science can prosper only where any result is openly and freely published and discussed without researchers fearing punitive measures.

The present book is an attempt to give the reader an update about the results of the ongoing forensic research on the two major camps of Auschwitz, the Stammlager or main camp close to the town of Auschwitz itself, and the Birkenau camp some 3 km to the northwest of the town. May it not lead to more persecution and ostracism of its author than he already has experienced.[87]---"
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:25
  #687
Medlem
quarks avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av TB-303
Du har inte lite information om lägret Wolzek som Höss pratade om? Hur stort var det lägret, var fanns det, och användes gaskammare där också?
Som jag skrev tidigare i tråden, syftar Höss med Wolzek på Sobibor.

Det framgår från hans beskrivning av resan dit.
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:25
  #688
Medlem
frökens avatar
Och så var det frågan som får mig att hänga kvar här; jag undrar fortfarande på vad förutom "ögonvittnen" man baserar påståendena om massgasningar i Auschwitz-Birkenau under WW2? Finns det några hårda fakta som styrker berättelsen? Har jag missat något viktigt innan tråden förirrade sig in i den toxikologiska pseudodebatten?
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:33
  #689
Medlem
TB-303s avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
Som jag skrev tidigare i tråden, syftar Höss med Wolzek på Sobibor.

Det framgår från hans beskrivning av resan dit.
Ännu något han "mindes fel" alltså. Då kan man ju fråga sig hur mycket han "mindes rätt" när det kommer till dessa massgasningar?
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:45
  #690
Medlem
Ruskigbusss avatar
OT inlägg raderade. Jag får be de som vill diskutera moderering göra det via PM.

/Mod
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:48
  #691
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av fröken
Och så var det frågan som får mig att hänga kvar här; jag undrar fortfarande på vad förutom "ögonvittnen" man baserar påståendena om massgasningar i Auschwitz-Birkenau under WW2? Finns det några hårda fakta som styrker berättelsen? Har jag missat något viktigt innan tråden förirrade sig in i den toxikologiska pseudodebatten?

Nej, det finns ingenting. Lycka till med att få fram de gaskammartroendes "bästa bevis". :smart: Hannover startade en tråd om det på The Revisionist Forum, inget av de sex miljarder människokreatur som finns på jorden torde kunna ge honom annat än "ögonvittnesuppgifter" och domstolsutslag. Tekniskt, forensiskt, dokumentärt - ingenting.
Citera
2005-03-16, 15:49
  #692
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av fröken
Och så var det frågan som får mig att hänga kvar här; jag undrar fortfarande på vad förutom "ögonvittnen" man baserar påståendena om massgasningar i Auschwitz-Birkenau under WW2? Finns det några hårda fakta som styrker berättelsen? Har jag missat något viktigt innan tråden förirrade sig in i den toxikologiska pseudodebatten?

Här blev det en dubbelpost, jag tycker forumet småkrånglat på senaste tiden?

Nåväl, inte heller en dubbelpost behöver vara förspilld surmjölk på otacksammaste hälleberget , låt oss exempelvis ägna "ögonvittnet" Henrik Tauber en tanke:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html

Citat:
"---Another commonly quoted witness is Henryk Tauber. Tauber was, according to his own testimony, a member of the inmate Sonderkommando of crematorium II during the war. J.-C. Pressac writes that this eyewitness testimony is the best in relation to the crematoria, which he considers to be 95% reliable. This testimony contains the following:[443]

"During the incineration of such [not emaciated] corpses, we used the coke only to light the fire of the furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned of their own accord thanks to the combustion of the body fat. On occasion, when coke was in short supply, we would put some straw and wood in the ash bins under the muffles, and once the fat of the corpse began to burn the other corpses would catch light themselves. [...]

Later on, as cremations succeeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of fat bodies, the fires were generally extinguished. [...]

Another time, the SS chased a prisoner who was not working fast enough into a pit near the crematorium that was full of boiling human fat. At that time [summer 1944], the corpses were incinerated in open-air pits, from which the fat flowed into a separate reservoir, dug in the ground. This fat was poured over the corpses to accelerate their combustion. [...]"

Tauber's claims as to self-igniting, self-combustible corpses are completely absurd, and in contradiction to all the laws of physical and technical sciences.[444] He also confuses grilling with burning with relation to the allegedly boiling fat from the corpses. What is more, fat cannot boil at all. It simply begins to ignite at temperatures of approximately 180-190°C.

Tauber also proves himself a liar in the technical details related by him. The combustion gases in a crematorium oven stream from the combustion chamber[445] through the cremation chamber containing the corpse (muffle), through the ash chamber into the flue, which conducts the exhaust gases to the chimney.[446] If a fire had been ignited in the ash chamber to burn the bodies located above, this would have reversed the flow of gas: fresh air would have been sucked in through the chimney, while the exhaust gases would have flowed through the muffle into the combustion chamber, from which they would have found their way out into the oven room. Starting the fire in the ash chamber, as described by Tauber, would have been disastrous.

On top of this, Tauber also claims that the Sonderkommandos shoved extraordinarily many corpses into each oven (up to eight) when they heard Allied planes approaching. Tauber claims that by so doing, huge flames would have come out of the crematorium's chimney, which they hoped would make the Allied bomber pilots aware of them. But as is common knowledge and has been pointed out many times, no flames ever come out of crematorium chimneys. It is also impossible to push eight corpses in an cremation muffle whose door is just two feet wide and high.[447] And apart from that, before Tauber and his co-inmates would have been able to push eight corpses into each oven and get a huge blaze going, any plane they claim to have heard approaching would have long flown far, far away. Such testimonies are, to use Pressac's words, nothing but downright lies and pure invention.[448]---"
Citera
2005-03-16, 16:02
  #693
Bannlyst
Vi tar väl en till vända med en väl citerad sk"expert" vilket denna Butrix-ingenjör har fått avsagt sig i domstol.
Leuchter.

Pajasen Luchter blev sponsrad av Irving som i desperation ville få fram bevis på att gasningar av judar omöjligen har förekommit.

Det bästa i den här sorliga historien om clownen Luchter är att han filmade sina provtagningar.
Då han skall ta prover från Crema II (för övrigt samma Crema II som SS soldater sprängde i luften den 20 januari 1945) så kliver han in i ruinerna via ett plåtförstärkt hål i taket, precis sådant där hål som enligt revisionisterna INTE FINNS. Och någon märkning på påsarna han lägger proverna i finns INTE. Det är vad revisonisterna kallar seriös forskning.
Citera
2005-03-16, 16:09
  #694
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Barnen tjattrar olidligt grälsjukt och intetsägande utanför mitt fönster. De tycks inte själva förstå vad de säger.

Germar Rudolf sammanfattar väl vad frågan rör sig om, och hur den utrotningstroende Pressac, som var den förste och egentligen den ende exterminationist som försökte betrakta "gasningen" som ett vetenskapligt och historiskt snarare än ett pseudoreligiöst och dogmatiskt fenomen, offentligt förtvivlade om Holocaustförkunnelsens framtid:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/7.html

Citat:
"---Pressac seems to be the only person of the establishment who takes notice of the progress of revisionist research. He knows that traditional historiography of the Holocaust is reduced to absurdity by the facts revealed by this research. Consequently, he keeps changing his attitude when making public statements. The most vehement attack of the media darling Pressac on the dominating historiography occurred during an interview published as an appendix to a PhD thesis analyzing the history of Holocaust revisionism in France. In it, Pressac described the established historiography of the Holocaust as "rotten" and stated:[455]

"Can we alter the course? It is too late. A general correction is factually and humanely impossible [...]. New documents will unavoidably turn up and will overthrow the official certainties more and more. The current view of the world of the [National Socialist] camps, though triumphant, is doomed. What of it can be salvaged? Only little."

In his first and so far most comprehensive book, Pressac is compelled to correct the statements of witnesses in many cases in order to eliminate errors and, in his opinion, technical impossibilities. But when so doing, he never reveals the basis upon which he undertakes these corrections. In actual fact, he merely replaces the capriciousness of 'eyewitnesses' with his own. Thus, the numbers of victims per gassing procedure, as estimated by Pressac, for example, are considerably lower than those estimated in the eyewitness statements, which often speak of several thousand victims per gassing operation per day for crematoria II and III. One thousand people could only have been made to enter a cellar with a surface area of 210 m2 under the maintenance of extraordinary discipline accompanied by a readiness to co-operate(!) on the part of the victims (see chapter 7.3.2.1.1.). The numbers of people reported in places by witnesses, on the other hand (2,000 and more[456]) could not have been contained by morgue 1. To arrive at the number of victims of Auschwitz-Birkenau, as spread by sensationalist media and literature until the late 1980s-four million-one is in fact compelled to resort to technically impossible figures of 'gas chamber' occupancy, as the witnesses do. At the moment, the official estimates range from approximately 1 to 11/2 million victims,[457] though in his second book, Pressac downgraded the 'gas chamber' victims to 630,000[458] and later even further down to 470,000-550,000,[459] and in an article published in a small German periodical in early 2002, a German mainstream journalist attempted to reduce the death toll of the Auschwitz 'gas chambers' down to as little as 356,000.[460] But as long as this revolutionary development is not accepted by most scholars, we will stick to the number of one million 'gas chamber' victims for all further considerations.

The following is a description of the homicidal gassing procedures for the individual installations, if one were to assume that one million human beings were actually gassed:

Crematorium I:
Blocking the crematorium environs to third parties; 500-700 victims undressing in open air (what a spectacle for all other inmates!); entry into 'gas chamber' (morgue) near oven room; on their way to the 'gas chamber,' victims march past piles of corpses of earlier victims; introduction of Zyklon B through pillars with utilization of gas masks after closure of doors; turning on of ventilators (if available) and opening of doors after death of victims (approximately five min.); evacuation of chambers without gas masks; removal and cremation of victims.[461] According to Pressac only a few gassings, with a total of only 10,000 victims.[462]

Crematoria II/III:
Entry of 800 to 1,200 victims into western entrance stairway into crematorium II; undressing in undressing cellar; travel through stairwell into morgue 1 ('gas chamber'); introduction of Zyklon B through pillars with utilization of gas masks; turning on ventilators after death of victims (approximately five min.); opening of doors after approximately 20 minutes; hosing down of corpses, soiled with blood, vomit, and excrement; removal of bodies without utilization of gas masks; cutting of hair and removal of gold teeth while bodies are still in cellar; transport with lift (payload 1.5 tons) to ground floor; there, transport through water-filled channels to ovens; cremation.[302] Approximately 400,000 victims for crematorium II, 350,000 for crematorium III according to Pressac.[463]

Crematorium IV/V:
Undressing of a few hundred victims in open air (again: what a spectacle for all other inmates!), otherwise in morgue, some of them next to corpses of last gassing victims awaiting cremation; entry into 'gas chambers' past coal room and doctor's office; evacuation of the entire building; introduction of Zyklon B through hatches from a ladder after closure of door(s); opening of doors after 15 to 20 minutes; removal of corpses to morgue or to cremation ditches behind crematorium V by the Sonderkommando, some of them wearing gas masks, some not. According to Pressac, the number of victims can only be estimated with difficulty, probably approximately 100,000.[464] A similar scenario applies to farmhouses I and II (see chapter 5.4.3.).---"
Citera
2005-03-16, 16:16
  #695
Medlem
frökens avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Ezzelino
Nej, det finns ingenting. Lycka till med att få fram de gaskammartroendes "bästa bevis". :smart: Hannover startade en tråd om det på The Revisionist Forum, inget av de sex miljarder människokreatur som finns på jorden torde kunna ge honom annat än "ögonvittnesuppgifter" och domstolsutslag. Tekniskt, forensiskt, dokumentärt - ingenting.

Jaha, det var som jag trodde då...det är alltså orsaken till att massgasningskramarna inte bullar upp några ovedersägliga bevis. Det är mer än skrämmande att se hur sanningen har fått vika ner sig under decenniers gång , men min fasta övertygelse är att sanningen en dag kommer att segra. Jag är född optimist!
Citera
2005-03-16, 16:47
  #696
Medlem
Nockes avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av fröken
Jaha, det var som jag trodde då...det är alltså orsaken till att massgasningskramarna inte bullar upp några ovedersägliga bevis. Det är mer än skrämmande att se hur sanningen har fått vika ner sig under decenniers gång , men min fasta övertygelse är att sanningen en dag kommer att segra. Jag är född optimist!

Inte helt oväntat att du skulle tycka att Ezzelino var bäst på att besvara frågan.

Hade du väntat dig ett annat svar från honom?

Varför är ögonvittnen så förkastliga? Brukar vara ganska viktiga i alla rättssystem.

Du kan hitta mer information här:

http://www.mazal.org/Default.htm

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/index-se.html

Läs igenom så kommer du hitta en hel del material.

Men har du grundinställningen att alla ögonvittnen ljuger och allt material är förfalskat så har du nog redan bestämt dig.

/Nocke
Citera

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