2010-05-10, 12:35
  #37
Medlem
Herr Lindholms avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Jrgen
Svenska staten subventionerar ju redan porr, sexleksaker och musik.
Jas?
Citera
2010-05-10, 14:30
  #38
Medlem
Jrgens avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Herr Lindholm
Jas?
Svensk statlig porr: http://www.dirtydiaries.se/
Svensk statlig musik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeQ0EcrI340
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statlig...onstn%C3%A4rer (titta under "Musik")
Svenska statliga sexleksaker: Titta bara bara p alla mn och kvinnor med skattefinansierade silikonbrst och penisproteser.
Citera
2010-05-11, 13:03
  #39
Medlem
wuuaas avatar
Citat:
"As for Adam Smith and Wealth of Nations. First of the all the idea of a unsubsidized, not state subsidized capitalism. We don't even bother talking about that. It has existed. It exists in a good part of the third world which is why the third world looks the way it does. It has never existed in any developed society for a very simple reason, the wealthy and the powerful won't allow it, as Adam Smith understood. They will use the levers of power to make sure that state power subsidizes them. "

"That's why [...] every developed society has developed just that way. That's one of the clichs of economic history. So we don't have to talk about that because it's never existed and it never will exist except for people who have it rammed down their throats. Now am I in favor of it, that's another question. Like in some mythical world would I like to see laissez faire capitalism. Well only under the conditions described by Adam Smith. The real Adam Smith, the one who wrote Wealth of Nations, not the one you worship before, but the one who wrote it and if you look at his argument for markets, it's pretty clear, I mean, maybe the argument's right maybe it's wrong but it's clear what it was, the argument was, I repeat, that under conditions of perfect liberty markets will lead to perfect equality. That's why markets are good, he said. They will lead to perfect equality and they will not force people to subject themselves to outside orders so they become less than human. ... If that were possible well, maybe so. But it's not in the cards."
Det dr tycker jag var ganska intressant,har han ngra som helst belgg fr det dr? Enligt ekonomer som Soros beror ju stora delar av fattigdomen i tredje vrlden p bristen av en riktigt vit marknad och den otroliga statliga byrkratin fr att t.ex. starta fretag eller registrera ett hus.


Citat:
Hmm, det dr stmmer nog inte. Tvrtom skulle jag sga. Det radas upp s mycket bieffekter numera s man blir matt. Om ett lkemedel mot exempelvis nstppa testas och en av frskspersonerna snubblar och bryter benet rapporteras benbrott som bieffekt. (sen kanske inte benbrottsbieffekten nr nda till fass iofs) Sen finns det mycket att sga om att lkemedelsindustrin inte alltid r s sund, men det har knappast med liberal politik att gra. Jag skulle tro att om bieffekter undanhlls r det p initiativ av ngon vilsen forskare (pga av hans egen prestige) och knappast fretagets policy.
Nej det tror inte jag heller men det r inte det jag frsker f fram heller,varken stat eller den osynliga handen kan garantera skra produkter och vlstnd. Men av dem 2 fredrar jag att man lter den osynliga handen agera fritt.
Citat:


Lnka grna ngon artikel om detta, lter intressant.
Jag tror dokumentren Life and Debt tar upp en hel del om det hr men det var ett tag sen jag sg den annars finns det rtt mycket att hitta p internet.
__________________
Senast redigerad av wuuaa 2010-05-11 kl. 13:05.
Citera
2010-05-11, 14:17
  #40
Medlem
Herr Lindholms avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Jrgen
Svensk statlig porr: http://www.dirtydiaries.se/
Svensk statlig musik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeQ0EcrI340
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statlig...onstn%C3%A4rer (titta under "Musik")
Svenska statliga sexleksaker: Titta bara bara p alla mn och kvinnor med skattefinansierade silikonbrst och penisproteser.
Marginalfenomen. Och kirurgiska ingrepp kan vl fr i helvete inte jmfras med leksaker?

Serist d; Private Media Group grundades 1965 i Stockholm och r fullt jmfrbart med t.ex. Anabolic Video eller Evil Angel. Rtta mig om jag har fel, men det var ingen av de vanliga medvindskrigarna som brydde sig speciellt mycket nr de flyttade till Spanien i brjan av 90-talet. Och skulle det uppst en ny motsvarighet till dom s skulle likfrbannat ingen svensk nringslivsminister vilja synas tillsammans med dom.
__________________
Senast redigerad av Herr Lindholm 2010-05-11 kl. 14:24.
Citera
2010-05-11, 20:43
  #41
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Äcklig gubbe
Adam Smith skulle ha avskytt kapitalismen faktiskt. Lt mig citera Noam Chomsky:

Nej, citera inte Noam Chomsky. Fattar inte allas jvla fascinering av honom, jag avskyr honom.

Han har utbildning i retorik, sen snackar han blja om saker han inte frstr och hyllas av vnsteranhngare.

Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Fuskat
ven i Noam Chomskys beskrivning av Adam Smith s var han fr kapitalism fr att det ledde till jmlikhet, men du kanske inte brydde dig om att lsa det sjlv? :S

De flesta som citerar Noam Chomsky vill bara citera Noam Chomsky, vad han sger kommer i andra hand.

Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Jrgen
Svenska staten subventionerar ju redan porr, sexleksaker och musik.

Nice, en subvention jag kan stlla mig bakom.
Citera
2010-05-11, 23:28
  #42
Medlem
BRTs avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Fuskat
ven i Noam Chomskys beskrivning av Adam Smith s var han fr kapitalism fr att det ledde till jmlikhet, men du kanske inte brydde dig om att lsa det sjlv? :S

Adam Smith fresprkade helt klart kapitalism; men inte ngon laissez faire-kapitalism. Han var positiv till ganska stor statlig intervention - speciellt om vi jmfr hans instllning med den grad av intervention som faktiskt existerade p Smiths tid. Han menade att marknaden ofta fungerade bst om staten hll sig borta; men p vissa omrden var statlig intervention det bsta svaret (vilket det ven, ofta, var nr marknaden krisade).
Citera
2010-05-11, 23:49
  #43
Medlem
Fuskats avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av BRT
Adam Smith fresprkade helt klart kapitalism; men inte ngon laissez faire-kapitalism. Han var positiv till ganska stor statlig intervention - speciellt om vi jmfr hans instllning med den grad av intervention som faktiskt existerade p Smiths tid. Han menade att marknaden ofta fungerade bst om staten hll sig borta; men p vissa omrden var statlig intervention det bsta svaret (vilket det ven, ofta, var nr marknaden krisade).

Jag har inte lst ngot av Smith s jag vet inte mycket om hans sikter som helhet, jag refererade bara till det saxade stycket.
Citera
2010-05-16, 16:40
  #44
Medlem
chippyboys avatar
Kritik mot Osynliga Handen;

Citat:
The Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist Joseph E. Stiglitz, says: "the reason that the invisible hand often seems invisible is that it is often not there."

Stiglitz explains his position: Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, is often cited as arguing for the invisible hand and free markets: firms, in the pursuit of profits, are led, as if by an invisible hand, to do what is best for the world. But unlike his followers, Adam Smith was aware of some of the limitations of free markets, and research since then has further clarified why free markets, by themselves, often do not lead to what is best. As I put it in my new book, Making Globalization Work, the reason that the invisible hand often seems invisible is that it is often not there.

Whenever there are externalitieswhere the actions of an individual have impacts on others for which they do not pay, or for which they are not compensatedmarkets will not work well. Some of the important instances have long understood environmental externalities. Markets, by themselves, produce too much pollution. Markets, by themselves, also produce too little basic research. (The government was responsible for financing most of the important scientific breakthroughs, including the internet and the first telegraph line, and many bio-tech advances.)

But recent research has shown that these externalities are pervasive, whenever there is imperfect information or imperfect risk marketsthat is always.

Government plays an important role in banking and securities regulation, and a host of other areas: some regulation is required to make markets work. Government is needed, almost all would agree, at a minimum to enforce contracts and property rights.

The real debate today is about finding the right balance between the market and government (and the third sectornon-governmental non-profit organizations.) Both are needed. They can each complement each other. This balance differs from time to time and place to place.

Citat:
Noam Chomsky (lugn nu, Visf), while acknowledging the intelligence of Smith's thesis, criticizes how the term of the "invisible hand" has been used.

He also explains: Throughout history, Adam Smith observed, we find the workings of "the vile maxim of the masters of mankind": "All for ourselves, and nothing for other People." He had few illusions about the consequences. The invisible hand, he wrote, destroys the possibility of a decent human existence "unless government takes pains to prevent" this outcome, as must be assured in "every improved and civilized society." It destroys community, the environment, and human values generallyand even the masters themselves, which is why the business classes have regularly called for state intervention to protect them from market forces. (...)

Citat:
The political economist E.K. Hunt criticized markets and the externalities emerging from market exchanges as being a route for self-advancement at the expense of social good. Hunt helped contribute to the literature on heterodox economics, helping to coin the term "invisible foot" in contrast to a presumably beneficient "invisible hand":

If we assume the maximizing economic man of bourgeois economics, and if we assume the government establishes property rights and markets for these rights whenever an external diseconomy is discovered [the preferred "solution" of the conservative and increasingly dominant trend within the field of public finance], then each man will soon discover that through contrivance he can impose external diseconomies on other men, knowing that the bargaining within the new market that will be established will surely make him better off. The more significant the social cost imposed upon his neighbor, the greater will be his reward in the bargaining process. It follows from the orthodox assumption of maximizing man that each man will create a maximum of social costs which he can impose on others. D'Arge and I have labeled this process "the invisible foot" of the laissez faire ... market place. The "invisible foot" ensures us that in a free-market ... economy each person pursuing only his own good will automatically, and most efficiently, do his part in maximizing the general public misery. "

(klla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inv...Hand#Criticism )

Sist men inte minst;

Citat:
George Carlin: - Comic Critic for Our Times (Part Two of Two).
"That invisible hand of Adam Smith's seems to offer an extended middle finger to an awful lot of people."
Citera
2010-05-16, 16:49
  #45
Medlem
Crossmacks avatar
Det skulle ju inte skada Hunt och Stiglitz ifall de ville komma med lite mer konkreta exempel.
Citera
2010-05-16, 17:16
  #46
Medlem
Kheperas avatar
Att frneka "den osynliga handen" r absurt. Den r direkt uppenbar fr alla mnniskor som har gon att se med.
Citera
2010-05-16, 18:29
  #47
Medlem
Jrgens avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Khepera
Att frneka "den osynliga handen" r absurt. Den r direkt uppenbar fr alla mnniskor som har gon att se med.
Varfr kallas den d osynlig?
Citera
2010-05-16, 18:34
  #48
Medlem
Kheperas avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Jrgen
Varfr kallas den d osynlig?
Det fr du frga Adam Smith om.
Citera

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