2020-05-28, 15:09
  #2317
Medlem
Irmschers avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Lampen
Historisk sett må atomubåter ha igang pumper, men de kan slå av den aktive kjølingen når de skal være ekstra stille, har lest rykter om at sea wolf kan ha rimelig greit tempo samtidig som den har passive kjøling dog.
Hydrogenceller er vel litt gårsdagens teknologi når det kommer til ubåter, Lithium batterier er det hete nye nå.

https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com/en/the-submarine-revolution-lithium-ion-battery-system-for-more-performance/


Japan går nå bort fra sterling og over til Lithium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-class_submarine

Du har alltså lyckats missa att ubåten drivs av en licensbyggd stirlingmotor från Kockums.
Citera
2020-05-28, 16:16
  #2318
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Irmscher
Du har alltså lyckats missa att ubåten drivs av en licensbyggd stirlingmotor från Kockums.

Från wiki (som du missade läsa):

Citat:
The eleventh Sōryū-class submarine (Ōryū) is the first Japanese submarine in the fleet to mount lithium-ion batteries. The JS Ōryū was given a budget of ¥64.3 billion/US$536.7 million under the 2015 Japanese Defense Budget.[9] Lithium-ion batteries have almost double the electric storage capacity of traditional lead-acid batteries, and by not only replacing them in the existing battery storage areas but adding to the already large battery capacity by also filling the huge space (several hundred tons displacement) inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines and their fuel cells with these new batteries, the amount of (more powerful) batteries carried overall is massive. This has improved the underwater endurance significantly and is felt will be an advantage over the slow recharge capability of the AIP system. In any event, JMSDF believes that lithium-ion is the way forward and intends to 'trial' this new system and compare it to the previous AIP system for operational effectiveness.

Annars (vet ej om det är omtalat tidigare i tråden) är nackdelen med stirling som AIP att under ett visst djup (vissa källor säger 200m) funkar inte stirlingmotorn utan en kompressor som "pushar" avgaserna ut genom skrovet. Denna kompressor bråkar mycket...lika mycket som en dieselgenerator. Inget stort problem i Östersjön, men i Nordsjön vill man ha möjligheten att kunna gå djupare. Samma sak för havet rundt Japan, eller Australien. När Saab Kockums endast utvecklar AIP-teknik baserad på stirlingmotorn har dom ett problem om dom vill sälja ubåtar avsedda för annat än Östersjön.
Citera
2020-05-28, 17:17
  #2319
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av ZiggeZiggarett

Läs artikeln, den var pedagogisk och bra. T o m en norsk bör kunna begripa den.

Nesten smått ironisk at du klarer å lire dette ut av deg, når du ikke forstår hva dette betyr engang.

"inside the hull previously occupied by the AIP Stirling engines".

Eller kanskje svensker har en annen virkelighetsoppfattelse enn resten av verden? Hvem vet (inte du, inte jag).

Og ja, batteriene erstatter Stirling, siden de holder langt mer kraft, og er rask å lade opp.
__________________
Senast redigerad av Lampen 2020-05-28 kl. 17:38.
Citera
2020-05-28, 17:22
  #2320
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Kaskadmust
Från wiki (som du missade läsa):



Annars (vet ej om det är omtalat tidigare i tråden) är nackdelen med stirling som AIP att under ett visst djup (vissa källor säger 200m) funkar inte stirlingmotorn utan en kompressor som "pushar" avgaserna ut genom skrovet. Denna kompressor bråkar mycket...lika mycket som en dieselgenerator. Inget stort problem i Östersjön, men i Nordsjön vill man ha möjligheten att kunna gå djupare. Samma sak för havet rundt Japan, eller Australien. När Saab Kockums endast utvecklar AIP-teknik baserad på stirlingmotorn har dom ett problem om dom vill sälja ubåtar avsedda för annat än Östersjön.

Italia skal kjøre på med lithium også og de bruker ikke stirling motor. Tyskland ser jo på det samme (sammen med norge), grunnen er jo langt høyere ytelse og mer kraft over tid. Sør-Korea det samme.

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2018/11/16/new-battery-can-double-the-operational-time-of-submarines-says-south-korea/


og

Citat:
The AIP system remains in the NFS version, but Italian industry has been called in to develop a new lithium-ion battery rather than a lead-acid one. “It’s 100 percent Italian, it has taken three years of research and development to perfect, and it is better-performing than previous batteries,” the source said. “Italy will be the first navy in Europe to adopt lithium ion.”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/07/22/italy-matches-french-naval-tie-up-with-german-sub-partnership/
__________________
Senast redigerad av Lampen 2020-05-28 kl. 17:25.
Citera
2020-05-28, 22:12
  #2321
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Lampen
Historisk sett må atomubåter ha igang pumper, men de kan slå av den aktive kjølingen når de skal være ekstra stille, har lest rykter om at sea wolf kan ha rimelig greit tempo samtidig som den har passive kjøling dog.
Hydrogenceller er vel litt gårsdagens teknologi når det kommer til ubåter, Lithium batterier er det hete nye nå.

https://engineered.thyssenkrupp.com/en/the-submarine-revolution-lithium-ion-battery-system-for-more-performance/


Japan går nå bort fra sterling og over til Lithium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry%C5%AB-class_submarine
Passiv kylning låter den med, vattnet som strömmar i rören är svårt att få tyst.
__________________
Senast redigerad av kroppskultur 2020-05-28 kl. 22:26. Anledning: ändrade lite
Citera
2020-08-10, 14:11
  #2322
Medlem
Ja hur det går för SAAB Kockums på export lär vi väl bli varse om.

Men det verkar vara långt framme med Polen och Södermanland-klassen nu.

Mycket knepiga detaljer dock!!

https://defence24.com/swedish-fms-and-a-gap-filler-submarine-for-polish-navy

Artikeln spekulerar om att man upprustar och iordningställer HMS Östergötland och tränar polackerna på HMS Södermanland (som är operativ i flottan, Östergötland ligger upplagd för reservdelar). På så sätt kan vi ha 4 ubåtar operativa tills A26 är levererad.

Då finns möjligheten att Polen även tar HMS Södermanland i besittning. De lär skall ha option och första-tjing på den.
Citera
2020-09-12, 11:44
  #2323
Medlem
Sonnenwendes avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av ZiggeZiggarett
Ja hur det går för SAAB Kockums på export lär vi väl bli varse om.

Men det verkar vara långt framme med Polen och Södermanland-klassen nu.

Mycket knepiga detaljer dock!!

https://defence24.com/swedish-fms-and-a-gap-filler-submarine-for-polish-navy

Artikeln spekulerar om att man upprustar och iordningställer HMS Östergötland och tränar polackerna på HMS Södermanland (som är operativ i flottan, Östergötland ligger upplagd för reservdelar). På så sätt kan vi ha 4 ubåtar operativa tills A26 är levererad.

Då finns möjligheten att Polen även tar HMS Södermanland i besittning. De lär skall ha option och första-tjing på den.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/09/09/polands-new-aip-submarines-will-transform-navy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Citera
2020-09-18, 10:13
  #2324
Medlem
Phantom042s avatar
Intressant film om SAABs varv i Karlskrona.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksbXMLiP-9Y
Citera
2021-02-02, 17:21
  #2325
Avstängd
Så, är kolonialubåten på väg att byggas och sjösättas eller har marinen kommit på bättre tankar?
Citera
2021-02-02, 18:37
  #2326
Medlem
longbow4ys avatar
Kan Saab återkomma i Australiens ubåtsaffärer?
Top Defence officials are examining the possibility of replacing the ageing Collins class submarine with an updated version of the original boat and cutting adrift the current contract with the French amid mounting frustration over cost blowouts and missed deadlines.
...
Multiple sources said the Defence Department was now weighing entering talks with Swedish defence company Saab, which owns the Collins' class submarines builder Kockums, about doing an evolved design dubbed "Son of Collins" as a Plan B.

While "Son of Collins" was ruled out when the government began its competitive evaluation process for the future submarine project, Saab is vying for the Dutch navy's submarine contract with a design that would offer a similar range to what the Australian navy requires for patrolling the South China Sea.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/shot-across-the-bows-on-submarine-contract-20210117-p56uo9
Australia’s plans to introduce 12 advanced new Attack class submarines may have hit a new snag. The huge cost of the French-designed conventional submarines, which will likely feature air-independent propulsion and other advanced technologies, means that officials may be examining whether they might instead replace the Royal Australian Navy’s six existing Collins class boats with an updated version of this same design.
...
As an alternative to the Attack class, the Australian government is now apparently considering the possibility of having Naval Group Australia — a local subsidiary of the French designer — build a new class of submarines that would be based on the aging Collins class design, the first example of which entered service in 1996.
...
Should Australia now turn to an evolved Collins class design — known informally as the “Son of Collins” — it would rekindle its relationship with the Swedish firm Kockums, whose parent company Saab now owns the design rights to the submarine. For their part, Saab/Kockums was not among the companies involved in the final bidding for the Collins class replacement, but they have plenty of experience building advanced conventional submarines, including the much-vaunted Gotland class. This design, which also features an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, was built for the Swedish Navy and one example was leased by the U.S. Navy in the mid-2000s as a dedicated aggressor.
...
Australian Defense Minister Linda Reynolds has not denied the possibility of beginning talk with Saab about a potential alternative to the Attack class. “As the original designer of the Collins class submarine, Saab Kockums has an ongoing relationship with [the Australian Submarine Corporation] supporting the life of type extension program for the Collins class submarine,” she said.
...
Kockums is also still involved in the Royal Australian Navy’s submarine program, providing ongoing support for a life-extension program that is intended to keep the original Collins class boats viable until their planned successors are in service. As such, a relationship between the two firms that could field an alternative to the Attack class is already in place.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38790/australia-reportedly-looking-at-an-alternative-to-its-costly-new-french-designed-submarines
Citera
2021-02-02, 19:31
  #2327
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av longbow4y
Kan Saab återkomma i Australiens ubåtsaffärer?
Top Defence officials are examining the possibility of replacing the ageing Collins class submarine with an updated version of the original boat and cutting adrift the current contract with the French amid mounting frustration over cost blowouts and missed deadlines.
...
Multiple sources said the Defence Department was now weighing entering talks with Swedish defence company Saab, which owns the Collins' class submarines builder Kockums, about doing an evolved design dubbed "Son of Collins" as a Plan B.

While "Son of Collins" was ruled out when the government began its competitive evaluation process for the future submarine project, Saab is vying for the Dutch navy's submarine contract with a design that would offer a similar range to what the Australian navy requires for patrolling the South China Sea.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/shot-across-the-bows-on-submarine-contract-20210117-p56uo9
Australia’s plans to introduce 12 advanced new Attack class submarines may have hit a new snag. The huge cost of the French-designed conventional submarines, which will likely feature air-independent propulsion and other advanced technologies, means that officials may be examining whether they might instead replace the Royal Australian Navy’s six existing Collins class boats with an updated version of this same design.
...
As an alternative to the Attack class, the Australian government is now apparently considering the possibility of having Naval Group Australia — a local subsidiary of the French designer — build a new class of submarines that would be based on the aging Collins class design, the first example of which entered service in 1996.
...
Should Australia now turn to an evolved Collins class design — known informally as the “Son of Collins” — it would rekindle its relationship with the Swedish firm Kockums, whose parent company Saab now owns the design rights to the submarine. For their part, Saab/Kockums was not among the companies involved in the final bidding for the Collins class replacement, but they have plenty of experience building advanced conventional submarines, including the much-vaunted Gotland class. This design, which also features an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, was built for the Swedish Navy and one example was leased by the U.S. Navy in the mid-2000s as a dedicated aggressor.
...
Australian Defense Minister Linda Reynolds has not denied the possibility of beginning talk with Saab about a potential alternative to the Attack class. “As the original designer of the Collins class submarine, Saab Kockums has an ongoing relationship with [the Australian Submarine Corporation] supporting the life of type extension program for the Collins class submarine,” she said.
...
Kockums is also still involved in the Royal Australian Navy’s submarine program, providing ongoing support for a life-extension program that is intended to keep the original Collins class boats viable until their planned successors are in service. As such, a relationship between the two firms that could field an alternative to the Attack class is already in place.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38790/australia-reportedly-looking-at-an-alternative-to-its-costly-new-french-designed-submarines

Jag är rädd att det är ett politiskt spel vi sett så många gånger där upphandlare ställer leverantörer mot varandra.

Aussies vill sätta press på fransoserna. det handlar om förhandlingar kring vem som skall plocka vilka notor och för att få dem att skärpa sig.

SAAB bör inte ödsla alltid för mycket mantimmar på detta.
Citera
2021-02-02, 19:33
  #2328
Medlem
Enda en artikkel om den "kastrerte" franske atomubåten som Australia skulle bygge 12 stk av.
Det er skremmende lesning, og det er grunn til å spørre hva de egentlig driver med.

Sunk before Service: Australia’s Disastrous Submarine Project - SEA 1000 Future Submarine.
https://intpolicydigest.org/2021/01/21/sunk-before-service-australia-s-disastrous-submarine-project/
Citera

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