2010-03-05, 16:26
  #877
Medlem
watson6669s avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Saturos
Ja och Churchill tyckte att det var skitbra att använda giftgas mot ''uncivilised races''. Att hylla en rasist innebär att du är rasist och därför har du nog inte mycket att tillföra i diskussioner om moral och ''mänskliga rättigheter''.

Du har visst inte mycket att komma med.
Jag begriper inte varför du jämför saker som hände för 90 år sedan med händelser i nutid.
På tal om Churchill så var det en bra kille, han insåg nämligen tidigt vilket pack kommunister är, och du är ju ett levande bevis på det.
Churchill var utan tvekan den ledae i väst som var mest viktig i kampen mot Hitler.
Utan hans ledarskap så hade England troligen blivit invanderat av Tyskland.
Sen var ju användandet av gas rätt vanligt förr eller?
Dessutom så påpekade han att man skulle använda gas som minimerade antalet dödsfall.
Sen var det ju inte så länge sedan en viss Saddam dödade kurder med gas.

Jag frågar dig igen.
Tycker du det är normalt att man tar livet av en medbogare bara för att den ringt en vän i SydKorea och berättat om under vilka levnadsförhållanden man lever i NordKorea?
Du vet, att i ett normalt land så kan man utvandra om man inte gillar regimen, du kan göra det, jag kan göra det men NordKoreanen kan inte göra det.
Citera
2010-03-05, 19:07
  #878
Medlem
Drozds avatar
Jag har en släkting som är läkare och jobbat för "Läkare utan gränser" i Nordkorea. Han brukar vara rätt tystlåten om det hela, men har berättat att det var utbredd undernäring och ofta strömavbrott.

Personligen tycker jag att Nordkorea är en viktig antikommunistisk propagandaresurs - landet visar på ett så tydligt sätt hur vedervärdig kommunismens praktik är att tom. "vänstern" förstår det (utom några puckon i RKU-sekten kanske). Lite cyniskt att säga så, men så länge landet består finns en viss global immuniseringseffekt mot nya epidemier av kommunist-viruset.
Citera
2010-03-07, 11:31
  #879
Bannlyst
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Drozd
Jag har en släkting som är läkare och jobbat för "Läkare utan gränser" i Nordkorea. Han brukar vara rätt tystlåten om det hela, men har berättat att det var utbredd undernäring och ofta strömavbrott.

Personligen tycker jag att Nordkorea är en viktig antikommunistisk propagandaresurs - landet visar på ett så tydligt sätt hur vedervärdig kommunismens praktik är att tom. "vänstern" förstår det (utom några puckon i RKU-sekten kanske). Lite cyniskt att säga så, men så länge landet består finns en viss global immuniseringseffekt mot nya epidemier av kommunist-viruset.

Rätt intressant synvinkel på det hela men jag ser närmast Nordkorea som ett gigantiskt gisslan drama. Och det är ofrånkomligt så att gisslandramat når sitt slut för eller senare. Jag hoppas mycket på en "fallande Berlinmur"-effekt som gör att storebror en dag kan få ta hand om stackarna såsom västtyskland gjorde med DDR
Citera
2010-03-07, 11:36
  #880
Bannlyst
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Saturos

Än en gång. I Sydkorea fängslar man folk som är vänster och vill ha ett socialistiskt styre i Sydkorea. Jag trodde att i en demokrati så får man tycka vad man vill? Är Sydkorea en demokrati enligt dig då? Det är verkligen en relevant jämförelse eftersom du konstant tar upp att man fängslar politiska fångar i Nordkorea när USA och Sydkorea som du anser är demokratier också gör det. Annars du detta vara orrelevant?

Jo men egentligen är det inte konstigt alls. Man isolerar ju folk med den dödliga viruset fågelinfluensan för att samhället inte skall dö. Sydkorea ser väl på kommunistviruset på samma sätt och jag kan faktiskt förstå dem. Här på hemmaplan tycker jag man för länge sedan borde jämställa Nazister och Kommunister. Skulle någon få ställa upp i sveriges riksval om man kallade sig äkta nazist? Nej samma borde gälla kommunist. Varför det inte är så är intressant att fundera över.
Citera
2010-03-07, 11:38
  #881
Bannlyst
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Saturos
Märks att många här inte riktigt läst på om verkligheten.

Hur står det till själv med den saken? Varför inte själv åka dit permanent och rapportera över internet för oss därifrån? Visst ja, de har ju inget internet där
Citera
2010-03-07, 16:31
  #882
Medlem
Averys avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Saturos

Det är så dåligt i Nordkorea att flera amerikaner valde att desertera dit för att fly från det enorma kapitalistiska och imperialistiska förtryck som finns i USA.

Hur många amerikaner flydde över kontra hur många koreaner flydde till syd? Skulle vara intressant att jämföra.
Citera
2010-03-08, 18:55
  #883
Medlem
Chamoniards avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Avery
Hur många amerikaner flydde över kontra hur många koreaner flydde till syd? Skulle vara intressant att jämföra.

Saturos är som någon påpekade en vattenskalle. Det finns endast 20-30 kända fall där amerikaner deserterade till Nordkorea.
Listan finns här:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_defectors_in_the_Korean_War

För att förneka att NK är en terrorstat är bara okunnigt. Här finns fø en låååång lista på helt bizarra, n¨stan komiska och totalt omdömeslösa provokationer från nordkoreanskt håll:

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL30004.pdf
Citera
2010-03-11, 00:44
  #884
Medlem
FreeThinkers avatar
Vilket paradis!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

In the remote north-eastern corner of North Korea, close to the border of Russia and China, is Haengyong. Hidden away in the mountains, this remote town is home to Camp 22 - North Korea's largest concentration camp, where thousands of men, women and children accused of political crimes are held.
Now, it is claimed, it is also where thousands die each year and where prison guards stamp on the necks of babies born to prisoners to kill them.

Over the past year harrowing first-hand testimonies from North Korean defectors have detailed execution and torture, and now chilling evidence has emerged that the walls of Camp 22 hide an even more evil secret: gas chambers where horrific chemical experiments are conducted on human beings.

Witnesses have described watching entire families being put in glass chambers and gassed. They are left to an agonising death while scientists take notes. The allegations offer the most shocking glimpse so far of Kim Jong-il's North Korean regime.

Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name, was the former military attaché at the North Korean Embassy in Beijing. He was also the chief of management at Camp 22. In the BBC's This World documentary, to be broadcast tonight, Hyuk claims he now wants the world to know what is happening.

'I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.'

Hyuk has drawn detailed diagrams of the gas chamber he saw. He said: 'The glass chamber is sealed airtight. It is 3.5 metres wide, 3m long and 2.2m high_ [There] is the injection tube going through the unit. Normally, a family sticks together and individual prisoners stand separately around the corners. Scientists observe the entire process from above, through the glass.'

He explains how he had believed this treatment was justified. 'At the time I felt that they thoroughly deserved such a death. Because all of us were led to believe that all the bad things that were happening to North Korea were their fault; that we were poor, divided and not making progress as a country.

'It would be a total lie for me to say I feel sympathetic about the children dying such a painful death. Under the society and the regime I was in at the time, I only felt that they were the enemies. So I felt no sympathy or pity for them at all.'

His testimony is backed up by Soon Ok-lee, who was imprisoned for seven years. 'An officer ordered me to select 50 healthy female prisoners,' she said. 'One of the guards handed me a basket full of soaked cabbage, told me not to eat it but to give it to the 50 women. I gave them out and heard a scream from those who had eaten them. They were all screaming and vomiting blood. All who ate the cabbage leaves started violently vomiting blood and screaming with pain. It was hell. In less than 20 minutes they were quite dead.'

Defectors have smuggled out documents that appear to reveal how methodical the chemical experiments were. One stamped 'top secret' and 'transfer letter' is dated February 2002. The name of the victim was Lin Hun-hwa. He was 39. The text reads: 'The above person is transferred from ... camp number 22 for the purpose of human experimentation of liquid gas for chemical weapons.'

Kim Sang-hun, a North Korean human rights worker, says the document is genuine. He said: 'It carries a North Korean format, the quality of paper is North Korean and it has an official stamp of agencies involved with this human experimentation. A stamp they cannot deny. And it carries names of the victim and where and why and how these people were experimented [on].'

The number of prisoners held in the North Korean gulag is not known: one estimate is 200,000, held in 12 or more centres. Camp 22 is thought to hold 50,000.

Most are imprisoned because their relatives are believed to be critical of the regime. Many are Christians, a religion believed by Kim Jong-il to be one of the greatest threats to his power. According to the dictator, not only is a suspected dissident arrested but also three generations of his family are imprisoned, to root out the bad blood and seed of dissent.

With North Korea trying to win concessions in return for axing its nuclear programme, campaigners want human rights to be a part of any deal. Richard Spring, Tory foreign affairs spokesman, is pushing for a House of Commons debate on human rights in North Korea.

'The situation is absolutely horrific,' Spring said. 'It is totally unacceptable by any norms of civilised society. It makes it even more urgent to convince the North Koreans that procuring weapons of mass destruction must end, not only for the security of the region but for the good of their own population.'

Mervyn Thomas, chief executive of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, said: 'For too long the horrendous suffering of the people of North Korea, especially those imprisoned in unspeakably barbaric prison camps, has been met with silence ... It is imperative that the international community does not continue to turn a blind eye to these atrocities which should weigh heavily on the world's conscience.'

·This World is being broadcast on BBC2 at 9pm tonight.
Citera
2010-03-11, 04:16
  #885
Medlem
myrdals avatar
Citat:
Du vet, att i ett normalt land så kan man utvandra om man inte gillar regimen, du kan göra det, jag kan göra det men NordKoreanen kan inte göra det.
Vad skönt det måste vara att leva ovetande om hur den överväldigande delen av världens befolkning lever.
Citera
2010-03-11, 04:18
  #886
Medlem
myrdals avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av FreeThinker
Vilket paradis!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

In the remote north-eastern corner of North Korea, close to the border of Russia and China, is Haengyong. Hidden away in the mountains, this remote town is home to Camp 22 - North Korea's largest concentration camp, where thousands of men, women and children accused of political crimes are held.
Now, it is claimed, it is also where thousands die each year and where prison guards stamp on the necks of babies born to prisoners to kill them.

Over the past year harrowing first-hand testimonies from North Korean defectors have detailed execution and torture, and now chilling evidence has emerged that the walls of Camp 22 hide an even more evil secret: gas chambers where horrific chemical experiments are conducted on human beings.

Witnesses have described watching entire families being put in glass chambers and gassed. They are left to an agonising death while scientists take notes. The allegations offer the most shocking glimpse so far of Kim Jong-il's North Korean regime.

Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name, was the former military attaché at the North Korean Embassy in Beijing. He was also the chief of management at Camp 22. In the BBC's This World documentary, to be broadcast tonight, Hyuk claims he now wants the world to know what is happening.

'I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.'

Hyuk has drawn detailed diagrams of the gas chamber he saw. He said: 'The glass chamber is sealed airtight. It is 3.5 metres wide, 3m long and 2.2m high_ [There] is the injection tube going through the unit. Normally, a family sticks together and individual prisoners stand separately around the corners. Scientists observe the entire process from above, through the glass.'

He explains how he had believed this treatment was justified. 'At the time I felt that they thoroughly deserved such a death. Because all of us were led to believe that all the bad things that were happening to North Korea were their fault; that we were poor, divided and not making progress as a country.

'It would be a total lie for me to say I feel sympathetic about the children dying such a painful death. Under the society and the regime I was in at the time, I only felt that they were the enemies. So I felt no sympathy or pity for them at all.'

His testimony is backed up by Soon Ok-lee, who was imprisoned for seven years. 'An officer ordered me to select 50 healthy female prisoners,' she said. 'One of the guards handed me a basket full of soaked cabbage, told me not to eat it but to give it to the 50 women. I gave them out and heard a scream from those who had eaten them. They were all screaming and vomiting blood. All who ate the cabbage leaves started violently vomiting blood and screaming with pain. It was hell. In less than 20 minutes they were quite dead.'

Defectors have smuggled out documents that appear to reveal how methodical the chemical experiments were. One stamped 'top secret' and 'transfer letter' is dated February 2002. The name of the victim was Lin Hun-hwa. He was 39. The text reads: 'The above person is transferred from ... camp number 22 for the purpose of human experimentation of liquid gas for chemical weapons.'

Kim Sang-hun, a North Korean human rights worker, says the document is genuine. He said: 'It carries a North Korean format, the quality of paper is North Korean and it has an official stamp of agencies involved with this human experimentation. A stamp they cannot deny. And it carries names of the victim and where and why and how these people were experimented [on].'

The number of prisoners held in the North Korean gulag is not known: one estimate is 200,000, held in 12 or more centres. Camp 22 is thought to hold 50,000.

Most are imprisoned because their relatives are believed to be critical of the regime. Many are Christians, a religion believed by Kim Jong-il to be one of the greatest threats to his power. According to the dictator, not only is a suspected dissident arrested but also three generations of his family are imprisoned, to root out the bad blood and seed of dissent.

With North Korea trying to win concessions in return for axing its nuclear programme, campaigners want human rights to be a part of any deal. Richard Spring, Tory foreign affairs spokesman, is pushing for a House of Commons debate on human rights in North Korea.

'The situation is absolutely horrific,' Spring said. 'It is totally unacceptable by any norms of civilised society. It makes it even more urgent to convince the North Koreans that procuring weapons of mass destruction must end, not only for the security of the region but for the good of their own population.'

Mervyn Thomas, chief executive of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, said: 'For too long the horrendous suffering of the people of North Korea, especially those imprisoned in unspeakably barbaric prison camps, has been met with silence ... It is imperative that the international community does not continue to turn a blind eye to these atrocities which should weigh heavily on the world's conscience.'

·This World is being broadcast on BBC2 at 9pm tonight.
Du kanske borde läsa på lite mer innan du postar grejer? Den där dokumentären har blivit totalsågad av sydkoreanerna.
Citera
2010-03-11, 06:46
  #887
Medlem
watson6669s avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av myrdal
Vad skönt det måste vara att leva ovetande om hur den överväldigande delen av världens befolkning lever.

Det är ju bra att du anser att det är just ovetande NordKoreanerna är.
Sen att du tycker det är skönt får ju stå för dig.
__________________
Senast redigerad av watson6669 2010-03-11 kl. 06:49.
Citera
2010-03-11, 13:15
  #888
Medlem
FreeThinkers avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av myrdal
Du kanske borde läsa på lite mer innan du postar grejer? Den där dokumentären har blivit totalsågad av sydkoreanerna.

Finns ungefär lika mycket bevis som för tyskarnas "förintelseläger" under WW2.
Citera

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