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2022-04-01, 22:55
  #1
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
Tredje rikets policy att deportera Europas judenhet till östeuropeiska "reservat", med syftet att bosätta dem i kvasisjälvständiga regioner efter kriget, resulterade rent funktionellt i upplösningen av i synnerhet den östeuropeiska judenheten.

Miljontals judar deporterades via transitlägren Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz och Belzec till ockuperade Östeuropa, till områden som Ukraina, Transnistrien, Vitryssland, Litauen, Lettland och den ryska krigsfronten. Förekomsten av tiotusentals västerländska judar från bl.a. Nederländerna och Frankrike i dessa områden efter kriget demonstrerar att omfattande deportationer ägde rum, vars färdväg i övrigt inte dokumenterats av modern historiografi.

Vad som hände med dessa judar efter kriget är omdebatterat. Det har länge spekulerats i att Stalin absorberade stora delar av den tidigare västeuropeiska judenheten in i Sovjetunionen och "gömde dem" från västerländska observatörer, till stor del för att underblåsa myten om det "hitleristiska folkmordet" på judarna, en myt som stadfästes medelst helt påhittade dödstal efter kvasivetenskapliga "utredningar" i läger som Auschwitz, Majdanek och Sobibor.

I denna tråd tänkte jag att vi kunde samla rapporter, artiklar, indicier, statistik och andra bevispunkter för Stalins och Sovjetunionens "gömda judar".

Vad hände med "Stalins judar"? Hur många som faktiskt "tvångsförsvann" kan skönjas i rapporter från efter kriget. I den tysk-judiska exiltidningen Aufbau, publicerad i New York, så rapporterades redan i slutet på 1944 sovjeterna förnekade att judar deporterades och gömdes djupt in i Sovjetunionen:
The Soviet embassy in Washington is denying reports disseminated by the Palestinian press, according to which the Russian authorities have transferred part of the population of liberated Bessarabia, Bukovina and the eastern parts of Poland to Siberia and already brought hundreds of Jews from Czernowitz to the Ural region. According to the statement of denial ‘these claims are completely unfounded and have nothing to do with reality.’ This reply was directed at the Federation of Bessarabian Societies of America, which had contacted the embassy in order to verify the reports which had reached them by cable from Jerusalem.
Rapporterna fortsatte emellertid att välla in. 1949 så rapporter American Jewish Yearbook om västerländska judar som göms av Stalin:
[...] reports about the mass deportation of Jews from the Western border region of the Soviet Union, especially from White Russia, the Ukraine, Eastern Galicia, Bukovina, and Bessarabia. According to one report, the deportation affected mainly the Jewish citizens who had relatives in America or Western Europe; other sources maintain that the whole Jewish population of some territories was deported.
Artikeln poängterar att:
The American Jewish League against Communism sent a protest to the Secretary General of the U.N. in which it estimated the number of Jews affected by the deportations as 400,000.
En anmärkningsvärt hög siffra som dock ryms i samma storleksordning som den mängd judar vi kan anta hamnade i vissa sovjetockuperade områden efter kriget. Den kommunistiska organisationen American Committee of Jewish Writers, Artists, and Scientists försökte avfärda dessa rapporter som "fantastic" och "without foundation", antagligen i ett försök att skönmåla Sovjetunionen. American Jewish Yearbook fortsatte emellertid att publicera rapporter om de gömda judarna. 1951 publicerade man följande:
The reports of deportations of Jews from some border territories of the Soviet Union were repeated during 1949-50. There was a report that the entire Jewish population of Lwow in Western Ukraine (formerly Eastern Poland) where 30,000 Soviet Jews had settled after World War II, had been completely evacuated. Similar reports came from Bessarabia and North Bukovina; in this case, they were denied and labelled as ‘fantastic’ by the Soviet Embassy in Washington on August 18, 1949. According to these accounts, the Soviet authorities in Kishinev and Czernowitz had announced on July 1, 1949, that Jews wishing to emigrate to Israel should register with the local authorities; the majority of the local Jewish population registered and was sent to concentration camps near Murmansk. According to another report all Jews with relatives in the United States or England had been deported. It remained impossible to confirm these accounts. The United States State Department received reports confirming simultaneous mass deportations of Greeks from the Black Sea area; but as to Ukrainian Jews, it could only say that reports of their deportation had reached the American Embassy in Moscow, but could not be verified, due to travel restrictions imposed on the Embassy personnel.
Citera
2022-04-01, 22:56
  #2
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
En rapport från Jewish Telegraphic Agency Daily News Bulletin från 1949 konstaterar att:
Reports that Jews in Bessarabia and Soviet Bukovina were deported on masse to Siberia last month after they registered for emigration to Israel were made known today on the basis of private letters reaching here. According to the letters, Soviet authorities in Kishinev and Czernowitz announced on July 1 that Jews wishing to emigrate to Israel could register with the local authorities. The majority of the Jewish population of the two cities, as well as Jews in all towns of Bessarabia and Soviet Bukovina, immediately registered for migration to the Jewish state. The letters report that between July 10-20, all Jews who had registered their desire to proceed to Israel were packed in specially-prepared railway coaches and dispatched to the Murmansk area, in the Arctic, which allegedly had been earmarked as a new concentration area for all Jews ejected from towns located on the Russian-Rumanian border. The letters add that panic is spreading in Bessarabia and in the Rumanian part of Bukovina among Jews who had been preparing to emigrate to Israel and who remained ‘paralyzed’ following the prohibition on emigration. Many months have elapsed since relatives in Israel of Jews in Bessarabia and Bukovina have received any mail from those areas, it was noted here.
1953 rapporterar American Jewish Yearbook på nytt:
Reports of deportations of Jews from Soviet border territories [...] were confirmed by new information printed in the Christian Science Monitor in March 1952. According to this and other reports, the transports of deportees from the Ukraine and White Russia were continuing, and all Jews had reportedly been removed from some districts, such as Rovno and Zdolbunov. At the beginning of the deportation, the Jews were assured by the police that this was not a penal action and that they were being removed ‘for their own security’ because the German occupation had left dangerous seeds of anti-Semitism; the deportees were given twenty-four to forty-eight hours’ notice of the transports. Later the tactics were changed, and the victims were rounded up in surprise midnight raids and removed at once. According to the Israelitisches Wochenblatt of Zurich, July 31-August 8, 1952, a similar evacuation was carried out in Kharkov, where 4,000 Jews were removed from the city [...].

Some of the deportees may have been sent to Birobidjan, where several districts were put under the administration of the secret police and transformed into slave labor regions. Some persons who passed through Birobidjan during and after World War II recalled having seen forced labor trains arriving there as early as 1944. The existence of such camps would explain the complete silence about Birobidjan for the past several years, and the complete severance of any contacts between its inhabitants and the other Jews in the Soviet Union.
Rapporterna om dylika deportationer är alltså mångfacetterade och kan på intet sätt kokas ned till propaganda från anti-sovjetiska krafter. Informationen ser delvis ut att komma från Sovjetunionen och sträcker sig över en relativt lång period. Rapporterna talar dessutom inte enbart om anti-sovjetiska eller sionistiska judar utan ofta om kategoriska deporteringar av hela judiska befolkningar i olika städer och regioner under sovjetisk kontroll.

21:a januari 2010 så publicerade New York Times en intervju med de två tysk-judiska systrarna Ruth och Toni Usherenko, som under andra världskriget deporterades tillsammans med sin mamma av tyskarna till koncentrationslägret Gross-Rosen i nedre Schlesien. Tidningen skriver de tre kvinnorna efter sovjeternas intåg deporterades till Siberien (!):
In 1945, the three women were sent by the Soviets to a labor camp in Siberia; they were considered suspect because of their religion and their German provenance.

‘We couldn’t speak one word of Russian,’ Ruth Usherenko recalled. ‘They didn’t feed us. When people died, they didn’t bury them – they put them in the forest and the wolves were eating them.’

So complete was their isolation that they did not know when the war ended. ‘Stalin passed away in 1953, and they released us in 1955,’ Ruth Usherenko recalled. ‘A woman came to us and said, ‘The war is over.’

The three women settled in the Ukrainian town of Dnepropetrovsk, where they worked as milliners. The sisters married – Ruth to a shoemaker and Toni to an aviation engineer – and in 1981, after years of trying to leave the Soviet Union, the families were able to emigrate to Brooklyn.
Berättelsen demonstrerar att det postulerade fenomenet onekligen var på riktigt: västerländska judar som deporterats av tyskarna deporterades i sin tur till fjärran östern av sovjeterna. I fallet med Usherenko-systrarna så hamnade de efter kriget i Ukraina, trots att de helt saknade kopplingar till landet och inte heller hade någon kunskap i ryska/ukrainska. Detta öde kan vi anta delades av hundratusentals andra judar som deporterats av tyskarna, och senare sovjeterna.

I oktober 1949 så publicerade den svensk-judiska tidskriften Judisk Krönika fler rapporter om judar som deporterats av kommunisterna:
The Russian newspapers have sharply denied the statements seen in Western press about a deportation of Jews from Ukraine to Siberia. What underlies these rumors, they say, is the fact that during the war a Jewish mass escape took place away from the Nazi armies. This mass escape led to 250,000 Jews ending up in Siberia. There they founded 57 collective farms.
Det är intressant att Sovjet överhuvudtaget valde att bemöta rapporterna, men bortförklaringen är ganska häpnadsväckande: förekomsten av hundratusentals judar i Siberien påstås ha berott på judiska evakueringar under 1941 för att fly den nationalsocialistiska armén, vilket skulle ha lett till rykten om sovjetiska massdeportationer år 1949...
__________________
Senast redigerad av Skogsvatte 2022-04-01 kl. 23:00.
Citera
2022-04-04, 12:50
  #3
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
Modern historiografi tycks behandla Stalins judeplaner som ett närmast etablerat faktum. Den brittiske historikern Robert Service skriver t.ex. i sin biografi av Stalin från 2004 att:
Rumours grew that measures were being prepared to deport all Soviet Jews to the Jewish Autonomous Region set up in Birobidzhan in eastern Siberia in 1928 (when Stalin and the Politburo had at last come to the conclusion that those Jews of the USSR who wished to retain their ancestral culture should have a territory of their own).

Whether Stalin really intended the universal deportation of Jews in the early 1950's remains unknown, though this is widely treated as a fact; and no conclusive proof has come to light.
Det är tänkbart att Stalins gamla planer på en sibirisk-judisk "oblast" underblåstes av möjligheten att gömma "Hitlers judar" långt bort från västeuropeiska observatörers ögon efter kriget. Därav de många rapporterna om omfattande massdeportationer av judar från tidigare tyskkontrollerade områden i Östeuropa.

Historikern Oleg Khlevniuk skriver i sin Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator att:
There were widespread rumors of possible pogroms and the internal resettlement of Soviet Jews.
Även Richard Overy talar om liknande tendenser i sin The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia.

Det är intressant att spekulera i de stora möjligheter som öppnade upp sig för Stalin och sovjeterna efter krigsslutet i relation till Tysklands judedeportationer. Hundratusentals nya judar, många av dem västerländska och "fångade" djupt inne i sovjetiska territorium utan kunskap i ryska språket, tvingade Stalin att agera för att upprätthålla myten om Hitler "utrotning" av judarna.
Citera
2022-04-04, 13:49
  #4
Medlem
Deporterades dessa judar till Nord Korea när Soviet föll samman så att lögnen om förintelsen inte skulle avslöjas?
Citera
2022-12-23, 23:15
  #5
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
En ovanlig men intressant hänvisning till tyskarnas deporteringspolicy och planer för judarna efter en tysk krigsseger hittade jag nyligen i den svensk-judiska tidskriften Judisk Krönika (nummer 1, januari/februari 1942). Så här står det på sida 10:
Vid antikominternkonferensen nyligen i Berlin berördes självklart också politiken mot judarna. De 13 stater, som voro representerade på konferensen, skulle efter det tyska propagandaministeriets direktiv öka angreppen mot judarna. Pester Lloyd meddelar, att en europeisk konferens under Alfred Rosenbergs ledning längre fram kommer att sammankallas för att närmare behandla denna fråga. Närmast skulle områden i Galizien reserveras för judarna från Tjeckoslovakien, Ungern, Rumänien
och Jugoslavien, men efter krigets slut skulle de skickas till Madagaskar.
Citera
2023-04-11, 21:18
  #6
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
Här kommer Judisk Krönikas inlägg om 250 000 judar i Sibirien från 10:e oktober 1949, på svenska:
Judisk kolonisation i Sibirien

De ryska tidningarna har med skärpa dementerat de i västlig press synliga uppgifterna om deportation av judar från Ukraina till Sibirien. Vad som ligger under dessa rykten är, säger man, det faktum, att under kriget en judisk massflykt ägde rum undan nazistarméerna. Denna massflykt ledde till att 250.000 judar hamnade i Sibirien. De har där grundat 57 kollektivkolonier.
Citera
2023-04-11, 21:26
  #7
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
8:e juli 1943 skriver Jewish Telegraphic Agency följande rapport:
Hundreds of thousands of Jews concentrated in Eastern Galicia, between the cities of Rawa-Russka and Przemysl, are now being organized by the Nazis into groups which are to be deported to unknown destinations, it was reliably reported here today in a message from the underground movement in Poland.
Vid denna tidpunkt hade praktiskt taget samtliga stora judegetton i Polen tömts. Judarna hade transfererats till ockuperade Östeuropa, bland annat Reichskommissariat Ukraine, via transitlägren Belzec, Sobibor och Treblinka.

Vidare: vittnet Paul Roser, fransk krigsfånge som deporterades till ett läger i Rawa-Ruska, Ukraina (Distrikt Galizien under kriget), konstaterade följande under Nürnbergrättegångarna:
I should say that our stay at the punishment camp, Rawa-Ruska, involved one thing more awful than anything else we prisoners saw ,and suffered. We were horrified by what we knew was taking place all about us. The Germans had transformed the area of Lvov-Rawa-Ruska into a kind of immense ghetto. Into that area, where the Jews were already quite numerous, had been brought the Jews from all the countries of Europe. Every day for 5 months, except for an interruption of about six weeks in August and September 1942, we saw passing about 150 meters from our camp, one, two, and sometimes three convoys, made up of freight cars in which there were crowded men, women and children. One day a voice coming from one of these cars shouted: "I am from Paris. We are on our way to the slaughter." Quite frequently, comrades who went outside the camp to go to work found corpses along the railway track. We knew in a vague sort of way at that time that these trains stopped at Belcec [sic!], which was located about 17 kilometers from our camp; and at that point they executed these wretched people, by what means I do not know.
Det är extremt anmärkningsvärt att detta vittne nämner Belzec vid namn och konstaterar att franska judar i Rawa-Ruska-lägret skulle ha deporterats dit. Det är så klart okänt i vilken mån dessa uppgifter stämmer och hur Roser fick reda på detta, men det är onekligen intressant att franska judar befann sig öster om Belzec vid denna tidpunkt, liksom andra judar "from all the countries of Europe".
__________________
Senast redigerad av Skogsvatte 2023-04-11 kl. 21:59.
Citera
2023-04-11, 22:14
  #8
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
1945 publicerade fransmannen Jean Guérin boken Rawa-Ruska där han konstaterade att:
Perdue aux fins fonds de la Galicie, aux limites de l’Ukraine, la province avait été transformée en un immense ghetto où confluaient les Juifs emportés de toute l’Europe occupée, gardés par des policiers ukrainiens brutaux, à la solde de l’Allemagne.

Försvunnen i Galiciens djup, vid Ukrainas gränser, hade provinsen förvandlats till ett enormt getto där judar samlades från hela det ockuperade Europa, bevakade av brutala ukrainska poliser, i Tysklands lön [automatisk översättning med Google Translate].
Det är intressant att judar från hela Europa tycks ha varit samlade i denna region, vilket förvisso inte är förvånande i sken av det vi vet om tyskarna judepolicy under perioden. Dessa uppgifter går dock stick i stäv med ortodox förintelsehistoriografi.

Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av ekologiskfascist
Jag bidrar inte till tråden men ville bara säga att du har en gedigen samling med fint skrivna förintelsetrådar. Det är en fruktansvärt frustrerande uppgift att övertyga en feg och passiv befolkning som den Svenska, att historien drastiskt bör omvärderas.

Tack. Ja, minst sagt frustrerande.
Citera
2023-04-11, 22:23
  #9
Medlem
Skogsvattes avatar
Tidningen The Mercury publicerade intressanta uppgifter om judar i Sibirien år 1949:
The Athens News Agency, quoting reports from 17,000 Greeks who had returned from the Caucasus, said that Jews in an unnamed large Ukrainian town who had relatives in Britain and United States had been deported to Siberia. It added that there had been recent large-scale deportations to Siberia of Armenians from the Ukraine.
En extremt intressant rapport från 1953 års utgåva av American Jewish Yearbook, som jag även nämnde i trådstarten, konstaterade följande:
Reports of deportations of Jews from border territories [...] were confirmed by new information printed in the Christian Science Monitor in March 1952. According to this and other reports, the transports of deportees from the Ukraine and White Russia were continuing, and all Jews had reportedly been removed from some districts, such as Rovno and Zdolbunov. At the beginning of the deportation, the Jews were assured by the police that this was not a penal action and that they were being removed ‘for their own security’ because the German occupation had left dangerous seeds of anti-Semitism; the deportees were given twenty-four to forty-eight hours’ notice of the transports. Later the tactics were changed, and the victims were rounded up in surprise midnight raids and removed at once. According to the Israelitisches Wochenblatt of Zurich, July 31-August 8, 1952, a similar evacuation was carried out in Kharkov, where 4,000 Jews were removed from the city. [...] Some of the deportees may have been sent to Birobidjan, where several districts were put under the administration of the secret police and transformed into slave labor regions. Some persons who passed through Birobidjan during and after World War II recalled having seen forced labor trains arriving there as early as 1944. The existence of such camps would explain the complete silence about Birobidjan for the past several years, and the complete severance of any contacts between its inhabitants and the other Jews in the Soviet Union.
Denna rapport är särskilt intressant eftersom den går tillbaka till 1944 och konstaterar att "forced labor trains" med judar till Birobidjan (i Sibirien) började anlända redan då, vilket antagligen indikerar att Stalins policy om förflyttning av tyskdeporterade judar fanns på plats tidigt, antagligen i ett försök att underblåsa Sovjetunionens propagandakrig om "utrotade" judar.
__________________
Senast redigerad av Skogsvatte 2023-04-11 kl. 22:41.
Citera
2023-04-24, 08:16
  #10
Medlem
Vänlige Viktors avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Skogsvatte
Här kommer Judisk Krönikas inlägg om 250 000 judar i Sibirien från 10:e oktober 1949, på svenska:
Judisk kolonisation i Sibirien

De ryska tidningarna har med skärpa dementerat de i västlig press synliga uppgifterna om deportation av judar från Ukraina till Sibirien. Vad som ligger under dessa rykten är, säger man, det faktum, att under kriget en judisk massflykt ägde rum undan nazistarméerna. Denna massflykt ledde till att 250.000 judar hamnade i Sibirien. De har där grundat 57 kollektivkolonier.

Har du en länk till denna krönika?

/VV
Citera
2023-04-24, 08:26
  #11
Medlem
Vänlige Viktors avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Skogsvatte
Här kommer Judisk Krönikas inlägg om 250 000 judar i Sibirien från 10:e oktober 1949, på svenska:
Judisk kolonisation i Sibirien

De ryska tidningarna har med skärpa dementerat de i västlig press synliga uppgifterna om deportation av judar från Ukraina till Sibirien. Vad som ligger under dessa rykten är, säger man, det faktum, att under kriget en judisk massflykt ägde rum undan nazistarméerna. Denna massflykt ledde till att 250.000 judar hamnade i Sibirien. De har där grundat 57 kollektivkolonier.

Jag tittar på texten igen och försöker begripa vad som står där.
Det verkar som att det står att någon deportering av judar från Ukraina till Sibirien aldrig ägt rum.
Utan det handlar istället om att det skedde en massflykt till Sibirien.
Jaha. Inte från Ukraina då, utan från var? Ryska judar?

/VV
Citera
2023-05-04, 14:11
  #12
Medlem
glimmandes avatar
Tillräckligt intressant tråd för att orka googla. Hittade den här intressanta artikeln:

Remapping Relief and Rescue: Flight, Displacement, and International Aid for Jewish Refugees during World War II

Finns som gratis pdf på Academia.edu för den som orkar registrera sig.

Citat:
It is an acknowledged irony of history that the “cursed bloody soil” of
occupied Germany became a postwar haven for some quarter of a million Jews
who constituted the tiny surviving remnant (She’erit Hapleta) of eastern European Jewry. Much less attention has been paid to another irony: that Joseph
Stalin’s Soviet Union had provided a crucial if extremely harsh and generally
involuntary refuge ...

Memoirs describe Soviet-occupied towns in eastern Poland quickly
illing up with refugees from areas that had been overrun by the Germans ...

Some of these Polish (or Ukrainian or Lithuanian, depending on shifting borders) Jews had led the advancing Wehrmacht into those parts of Poland that
had become Soviet after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of August 1939. They
were then deported, often under brutal conditions that unknown numbers did
not survive, as suspect foreigners to forced labor or so-called special camps in
what is generally referred to in memoirs as “Siberia” but in fact could mean
other parts of the vast USSR, including the Urals and Kazakhstan. Local Jews
living in what had been eastern Poland, now denounced by the Soviets as “capitalists,” were also deported together with the refugees, mostly in two waves in
February and April 1940. Some Polish Jews who had led the Nazis aroused
suspicion by registering to return to the German side, precisely to ind family
members who had been left behind or because of false rumors that conditions
had stabilized and were less harsh than on the Soviet side, sometimes out of
fear of being forced to accept Soviet citizenship, sometimes simply because
there was no kosher food available in the Soviet territories.4
Large numbers of
Polish Jews, no one knows how many, thus found themselves forcibly transported to the Soviet interior. Already by February 1940 some 220,000 Polish
citizens had been shipped east, often arrested in the middle of the night or the
early morning hours ...

The major deportations
(the numbers are unclear) continued right up until Germany invaded Russia in
June 1941.5
By this twist of history, which intersected in complicated ways
with the general mass evacuation (rather than “deportation”) of civilians,
including up to two million Soviet Jews, into the vast Soviet interior in 1941, as
well as broader deportations of non-Jewish Poles and other suspect “foreigners,” several hundred thousand Polish Jews escaped the exterminatory German
onslaught that followed the invasion in June 1941 ...

In the midst of the Holocaust, at a time when it
is generally accepted that the international and especially American Jewish
community had essentially failed in their efforts at rescue, an elaborate operation spearheaded by the JDC and centered in Teheran eventually provided the
aid that enabled the survival in the Soviet Union of between 65 and 80 percent
of the Polish Jews who did escape extermination, about 10 percent of a prewar
population of 3.3–3.5 million. The “Asiatics” constituted the majority in the
DP camps of postwar Germany; some camps were populated entirely by refugees from postwar Poland who had returned from the Soviet Union

...

In 1942, at the outset of the effort, the JDC estimated that there were
some two million Poles in Russia, of whom six hundred thousand were Jews,
surely an inlated igure, born perhaps out of hope that more than realistically
possible had been able to escape.

Säg 300 000 judar verkar på olika sätt ha överlevet i Sovjet, antingen genom sovjetisk deportation österut eller på eget bevåg. Ganska intressant.

Om vi tittar på tidsaxeln så ligger den här migrationen/deportationen för tidigt. Det man vill förklara är ju Reinhardlägren där kanske dryga miljonen människor transporterades till läger på gränsen till Sovjet där man byter rälsbredd. Revisionistidén är att dessa då fortsatte österut och inte dödades i lägren. Då borde de här judarna ha dykt upp i Sovjet 1942, men enligt texten jag citerat ovan så dyker de upp 1940.
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