2014-01-27, 21:25
  #6361
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av capmac
Goddag yxskaft. Jaktlänken TIDLS finns kvar och används varje dag. Det var TARAS nationella länkmöjlighet som fick utgå. Link 16 gör ungefär samma sak, men vi saknar markinfrastrukturen.

/capmac

Du har rätt.
Citera
2014-01-28, 01:27
  #6362
Medlem
Jupp.

Taras var definitivt inblandat i min besvikelse.
Hittade några gamla citat dock. (från 2006 tom 2009?)


"Link 16 (also known as TADIL J in the US) has been designed to optimize the use of the MIDS/JTIDS architecture. MIDS is a major U.S.-led international programme in which Link 16 compatible data communications terminals are being developed. Link 16 is defined as the designation for Joint Tactical Information Data System (JTIDS) waveform and protocol compatible radios that transmit and receive data messages in the TADIL-J message catalog.

Link 16 has been developed to meet the information exchange requirements of all tactical units, supporting the exchange of surveillance data, EW data, mission tasking, weapons assignments and control data. Link 16 is the NATO-standard tactical datalink that is being adopted by more and more users, on more and more platforms, to support coalition operations. In addition to the Swedish data link, Link 16 is now an option in Gripens onboard datalink capabilities. This further enhances Gripen’s interoperability and gives users an even wider choice of networked systems to meet their national and international needs.

Gripen has always been a networked aircraft. Long before today’s concepts of netcentricity entered the military vocabulary, the Gripen was designed to be a datalinked, networked fighting system. This is not some lucky coincidence. By the late 1950s Sweden’s military thinkers and aircraft builders had recognized the game-changing effect that a linked flow of secure electronic combat data could have on tactics and operations.

It is well known now – but was once a highly-classified national secret – that Saab’s J 35 Draken was fielded with one of the world’s first operational datalink systems. Central to the Gripens warfighting capabilities is its unique Communication and Datalink 39 (CDL39), which is the best in the world. In BVR combat, where information and situational awareness are key to success, a datalink system gives the user unrivaled battlespace awareness. The advantages of datalink systems are well recognized elsewhere and include the JTIDS used by US armed forces and Britain's RAF, and NATO's Link 16.

However, these other systems are fitted only to a few aircraft and are generally command-driven systems used to guide other aircraft. They do not allow a free flow of information between platforms and are limited in the type of data they can handle. Furthermore, compared to the CDL39 their basic data exchange rates are painfully slow. Types like the Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon will be the first operational aircraft outside Sweden to have datalink capability that comes anywhere matching that of the Gripen.



The CDL39 is fully integrated with Sweden's new tactical Radio System(TARAS) - a secure radio network for JAS39 Gripen and JA37D Viggen fighters, S100B Argus AEW&C platforms, S102B Korpen SIGINT aircraft and ground-based Stridslednings Central, Command and Control Center (StriC) units.

The FMV is currently working to make CDL39 capable of communicating with JTIDS for international Gripen operations. Up to four aircraft can be actively transmitting on the datalink at any one time and an infinite number can be receiving(passive).As its most basic function the CDL39 can transmitt radar/sensor pictures and aircraft/weaponry status data anywhere on the TARAS network. To send data on the link all the pilot has to do is select the appropriate radio channel/which will be preset by the mission planning system) and transmit. extensive testing has shown the system to be unjammable.

The Gripen's datalink offers enormous flexibility. For example, in the air to surface role one aircraft "package" can attack a target, obtain a radar picture of the the target area and realy it to the cockpits of the next wave of attackers. Those aircraft would receive an accurate image of the target area, allowing them to know which targets have already been attacked. Furthermore this information can be relayed back to the StriC for decisions based on the actual situation.

In the air to air role it is possible for one Gripen to transmit its radar picture of an airborn target to the radar screen of another aircraft. The second aircraft can the leave its radar switched off, approach the target and engage it without ever betraying its precense. Weapons launch even can be guided from the first aircrafts radar. Using AEW&C radar, a much larger airpicture can be datalinked to a formation of Gripens, to increase their combat reach.

The Gripen/datalink combination offers formidable capabilities. The airforce has run air defence exercises deplying just six Gripens to defend half the country. Using the CDL39, three pairs of aircraft flying CAP are able to monitor Sweden's entire east coast, from the northern edge of the island of Gotland in the Baltic to Ronneby Air Base and beyond, to the souther tip of the country.

Each Gripen pilot can be confident that everybody knows where everyone else is at all times, what they are seeing and what they are doing."

skälet var alltså interoperabilitet mellan olika data länkar, som jag minns det?
Citera
2014-01-28, 01:28
  #6363
Medlem
Samt :)

"Interoperability and management of the Swedish TARAS-system compared with JTIDS/MIDS. The Swedish tactical radiosystem (TARAS) has a similar architecture from a technical point of view as the NATO system Joint Tactical Information Distribution System/Multifunctional Information Distribution System (JTIDS/MIDS). The prime service offered by JTIDS/MIDS is the tactical datalink Link 16. One purpose with this thesis is to describe similarities and dissimilarities between the two radio systems from a technical point of view. According to these similarities and dissimilarities this thesis studies whether there is any ability to adapt the TARAS-system to JTIDS/MIDS or not.

An adaptation which has the ultimate goal of interoperability between Swedish air and seaforces and NATO. Another purpose is to use the flagrant similarity between the systems regarding complexity, and consequently the demand to ensure the efficient and co-ordinated use of data links in any operational theatre cell as a basis for discussion on how a Swedish data link planning and management cell, supporting TARAS, should be organised. By using a selected nation’s, The United Kingdom’s, data link management cell as a basis for discussion it is examined if any conclusions can be drawn as to how a Swedish data link planning and management cell should be organised and working in the future. The issues regarding organisational level within the Swedish Armed Forces, major tasks and competency of the crew is examined. The conclusions in the thesis is that there is no interoperability between the two systems TARAS and JTIDS/MIDS.

Consequently, Sweden must leave the TARAS-system and adapt the JTIDS/MIDS-system if any interoperability at the highest level, between on the human level (brain-to-brain), is to be achieved. Regarding the data link planning and management cell, the only general conclusion that is possible to draw in the comparison with the U.K. cell is that the Swedish analogue should be organised in a joint way and within the framework of the organisation of the Air Component Commander’s organisation. When it comes to tasks and competency of the crew, the dissimilar philosophies for using the systems and the use of NCOs, a category that doesn’t exists in Sweden, makes further comparisons impossible. " The JTIDS uses 127 different frequency hopping patterns, the TARAS used up to 256.

Denna pdf brukade vara tillgänglig på annalindhbiblioteket.se

Har den här med:

Our Swedish Data-link updates every second, as compared to Link16 (every twelfth second) This makes it possible for us to fly 'radar silent' and even shoot its missiles from it without any own radar. And the data-link is able to steer you in, in every detail (close control) through its data commands. Which means that Gripen will be operational even with radio jammed.

"With the deployment of S-TADIL J , operational units will have three possible data link paths that can be used to support multi-ship data link coordinated operations. S-TADIL J supports the same levels of surveillance and weapon coordination data exchange provided by Link-11 and Link-16. The TADIL J message standard is implemented on S-TADIL J to provide for the same level of information content as Link-16."

And "Utilising time division architecture, Link 16 JUs have pre-assigned sets of multiple time slots in which to transmit their data and to receive data from other units. The time slots of a net can be parcelled out to one or more Network Participation Group (NPG), which are defined by operational function and by the types of messages that will be transmitted in it"

Och sen det här.

"Among the “major headaches” anticipated in this program, Huff said, is obtaining permission from the U.S. government to share JTRS technology with the MIDS partner countries.

He said the MIDS office is working with the Defense Department and the National Security Agency to figure out how the Europeans can participate in this program.

“For each software module, we have to seek NSA guidance to release information,” he said. “It’s very painful.”

Unlike the current MIDS, where the encryption chip is a piece of hardware, the JTRS is entirely software based. “In JTRS, we have reprogrammable [security] engines, keys, cryptographic algorithms, and code that is not releasable,” said Huff. “Somehow, we have to come up with a way to package it in an anti-tamper environment. NSA is working on this.”

Under a worst-case scenario, the allies would have to develop their own software and each partner would have to come up with compatible algorithms for interoperability, said Huff. “We really don’t want to do that. We want the United States to do the [security] work and find a way to provide it to them.”


Although, what that will have to do with defending my Sweden in case of a sudden attack beats me?
The best trained forces outside of Sweden.
The code keys stored in the States?

Tja, vad gör vi inte för att få leka med NATO? Detta hoppas jag dock har förändrats, 'öpna och slutna' nycklar (assymetrisk kryptering) är ingen nyhet på internet, titta på pgp och zimmerman för det. Att USA fann detta besvärligt påminner mig om detta.

"The author was involved in the import of many software based weapon systems while in Armscor in his youth. In each case South African software engineers controlled the software and made sure of the algorithm integrity. In each and every case the imported software was found to be incompetent”, but because of DoD policy in those days, the problem and above equation was recognised and South Africa kept control of the system software.

In the middle 90’s the author’s company sold a radar warning simulator to a European NATO member for their F16s. During the tests it was conclusively established that the F16 electronic warfare system was blind over half its intended frequency spectrum. It was operationally useless. When these aircraft were required for use in Bosnia, a US approved operation, the USAF issued “combat software” with the “latest upgrades”. After the deployment, the upgraded software was erased. This NATO country could then only use its aircraft in US approved operations and had in fact, no sovereignty."

From South African Army Journal 2008 issue 2.

Allt detta är diverse information jag fann på nätet när jag först skrev om den. Har också för mig att man kunde splitta TADILJ i tre olika slots för att updatera snabbare, så 12 delat med 3, var 4:de sekund? Å andra sidan, kan dom så kan nog vi med, eller?

Sen så är det så att all denna information finns, i alla fall har funnits, på nätet. Om nu någon ser detta som hemligt? Ibland verkar information 'tas bort', även där. Det gör den dock inte 'hemligare' än vad den en gång var, när den publicerades, av respektive intressenter.
Citera
2014-01-28, 02:44
  #6364
Medlem
Blir sur igen när jag läser mig själv :) Ibland tycker jag nog att vi svenskar är lite för 'anpassningsbara'? Vi skrotar en teknologi andra nationer önskar dom hade, allt för att få bli samarbetspartner, officiellt med NATO. Varken Östeuropéer, eller jag för den delen, borde bli förvånade över att vi i en konflikt tillhör väst, eller hur? Någon här som inte har begripit detta faktum? Men vi har tidigare försökt förhålla oss neutrala, så gott det nu går, och sagt vad vi tycker. Nuförtiden har vi slutat.
__________________
Senast redigerad av Yoron 2014-01-28 kl. 02:46.
Citera
2014-01-30, 02:21
  #6365
Medlem
BleAivanos avatar
Citat:
RIO - Den Defesanet sajt som specialiserat sig på unika partnerskap med
GLOBE, på onsdagen diskuterade viktigaste handelshistoria militär luftfart i
Brasilien: köp av 36 stridsflygplan, som en följd av FX2 programmet.
Se hur var diskussionen ovan.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=sv&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Foglobo.globo.com%2Fpais%2Fo-globo-defesanet-veja-como-foi-debate-sobre-compra-dos-cac as-suecos-11429657

Jag har inte dock kollat videoklippet i artikeln eftersom jag antar att det är på Portugisiska.
Citera
2014-01-30, 10:37
  #6366
Medlem
Lt.Col.Kilgores avatar
...om 10 år kommer många fler länder att köpa/köpt JAS E/F (NG). Inte för att det är bäst, utan för att det ger mycket för pengarna. Inte för att Sverige är neutralt, utan för att JAS är vettigt som vapensystem. Billigast i inköp, extremt billigt att operera.

Allt skitsnack om att Rafale, EF2000, Su-35(flanker E), F35 osv. skulle var så mycket bättre är bara en massa BS. Det finns små skillnadet, men inte ungefär dubbelt pris och 3-7 dubbelt pris i operation och underhåll.

Grattis Brasilien till ett smart val.
Citera
2014-01-31, 20:56
  #6367
Medlem
BuprenOrvars avatar
Förvånande att ingen postat denna intressanta jämförelsen mellan Gripen NG och F-35: http://imageshack.com/a/img802/4478/3nvo.jpg
Citera
2014-02-05, 12:13
  #6368
Medlem
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Lt.Col.Kilgore
...om 10 år kommer många fler länder att köpa/köpt JAS E/F (NG). Inte för att det är bäst, utan för att det ger mycket för pengarna. Inte för att Sverige är neutralt, utan för att JAS är vettigt som vapensystem. Billigast i inköp, extremt billigt att operera.

Allt skitsnack om att Rafale, EF2000, Su-35(flanker E), F35 osv. skulle var så mycket bättre är bara en massa BS. Det finns små skillnadet, men inte ungefär dubbelt pris och 3-7 dubbelt pris i operation och underhåll.

Grattis Brasilien till ett smart val.
Din åsikt verkar delas av experter, läs sidan 4 av denna artikel
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_02_03_2014_p66-657036.xml&p=1
Citera
2014-02-10, 12:53
  #6369
Medlem
ejdars avatar
Vilken topphastighet kan vi räkna med att nya JAS NG kommer att ha. Om den kan komma upp i supercruice MK1 utan EB så borde väl topphastigheten med EB ligga över MK2 eller?
Citera
2014-02-10, 13:30
  #6370
Medlem
Dr.Spins avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av ejdar
Vilken topphastighet kan vi räkna med att nya JAS NG kommer att ha. Om den kan komma upp i supercruice MK1 utan EB så borde väl topphastigheten med EB ligga över MK2 eller?
Handlar om lite mer än så. Utgångshastigheten på jetutblåset är avgörande för toppfarten, dragkraft är viktigare för accelerationen. Farten på utblåset är i sin tur begränsat av trycket i motorn.

F414 klarar av att dra igenom ca 20% mer luft i samma diameter. Det betyder att utblåset bör vara 20% snabbare vilket innebär en toppfart på mach 2,2 till 2,4 när gamla Gripen ligger runt 1,8 till 2,0.

Friktion är ej inräknat.

Men, om ebk i motorn inte klarar av att komprimera luften med motsvarande mängd (dvs klara det högre trycket) så kan toppfarten förbli densamma.
Citera
2014-02-10, 14:01
  #6371
Medlem
Megaforces avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Dr.Spin
Handlar om lite mer än så. Utgångshastigheten på jetutblåset är avgörande för toppfarten, dragkraft är viktigare för accelerationen. Farten på utblåset är i sin tur begränsat av trycket i motorn.

F414 klarar av att dra igenom ca 20% mer luft i samma diameter. Det betyder att utblåset bör vara 20% snabbare vilket innebär en toppfart på mach 2,2 till 2,4 när gamla Gripen ligger runt 1,8 till 2,0.

Friktion är ej inräknat.

Men, om ebk i motorn inte klarar av att komprimera luften med motsvarande mängd (dvs klara det högre trycket) så kan toppfarten förbli densamma.

Eftersom luftmotståndet inte ökar linjärt så får man inte 20% ökning av topphastigheten bara för att motorn blåser 20% mer gaser.. 5-10% kan vara rimligt.
Citera
2014-02-10, 14:41
  #6372
Medlem
ejdars avatar
Tack för era svar ang Jas NG och topphastighet.
Vad innebär egentligen supercruise, är det då möjligt för JAS att nå t.ex Leningradområdet och tillbaka i överljudsfart hela vägen.

Vilka andra stridsflygplan av idag har supercruise?
Hur mycket soppa drar planet under supercruise gämfört med färd i EB mode.

Har MiG-25 möjlighet till supercruise och hur vilka egenskaper gjorde det möjligt för den att nå Mach 3.2 ?
Citera

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