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Helt säker.
Så Ni är alltså inte samma person då? Helt säker... ?
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Citera... Jag ser ingen folkmassmordsorder undertecknad A. Hitler. Gör Du?
Ja, det här är också det en gammal revisionistkäpphäst. Även domaren i Lipstadträttegången var inne på samma banor, vilket jag återkommer till nedan. Först, för att hålla nere längden på det här inlägget kommer jag bara citera när jag anser det helt nödvändigt.
Till att börja med får jag citera samma länk som ovan men nu förtydliga med citat.
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/sec_xiii.asp#13.52
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Evidence of Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the extent, if any, of his knowledge of and responsibility for the evolving policy of extermination.
Evidence of Hitler's attitude towards the Jews and the extent, if any, of his knowledge of and responsibility for the evolving policy of extermination.
Alltså ”his knowledge of and responsibility for the evolving policy of extermination”
Claude har ju redan rett ut begreppet ”extermination” för oss så jag lämnar det.
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”I” är domaren i rättegången.
13.55 But account must also be taken not only of what Hitler said but also of what he did or authorised to be done or at least knew was being done in relation to the Jews. In the following paragraphs of this judgment I will summarise what appears to me to be the evidence of Hitler's involvement in the successive programmes of shooting, deporting and gassing Jews in large numbers. This evidence (which is in large part accepted by Irving) would in my view convince a dispassionate historian of Hitler's persistent anti-semitism.
13.55 But account must also be taken not only of what Hitler said but also of what he did or authorised to be done or at least knew was being done in relation to the Jews. In the following paragraphs of this judgment I will summarise what appears to me to be the evidence of Hitler's involvement in the successive programmes of shooting, deporting and gassing Jews in large numbers. This evidence (which is in large part accepted by Irving) would in my view convince a dispassionate historian of Hitler's persistent anti-semitism.
Om Hitlers inblandning i östfronten:
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13.57 Irving further accepted that the evidence indicates that the programme of shooting Jews in the East was systematic, in the sense that it originated in Berlin and was organised and co-ordinated from there.
Furthermore Irving conceded that the evidence bears out the contention of the Defendants that Hitler sanctioned the killings. Irving testified that, if he had given audiences the impression by what he said in Australia in 1986 that the killings on the Eastern front had taken place without the knowledge and approval of Hitler and his cronies, he had been wrong to do so. His evidence was that "certainly Hitler sanctioned the killing of the Jews on the Eastern front”
Furthermore Irving conceded that the evidence bears out the contention of the Defendants that Hitler sanctioned the killings. Irving testified that, if he had given audiences the impression by what he said in Australia in 1986 that the killings on the Eastern front had taken place without the knowledge and approval of Hitler and his cronies, he had been wrong to do so. His evidence was that "certainly Hitler sanctioned the killing of the Jews on the Eastern front”
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The evidence which prompted Irving to make these concessions consisted in the regular reports made by the Einsatzgruppen to Berlin; the preparation by the RHSA in Berlin of Ereignismeldungen (event announcements) and a report numbered 51 dated 29 December 1942 which recorded the "execution" of 363,112 Jews and which (as Irving accepted) was probably shown to Hitler. The Defendants also relied on the so-called Muller order of 1 August 1941 to which I shall have to return later.
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It appears to me that these concessions by Irving were rightly made. Apart form the existence of the evidence to which I have just referred the vast manpower required to carry out the programme at a critical stage in the war would surely have required the approval of Hitler.
”Originated in Berlin”, alltså beordrat från stabshögkvarteret i Berlin, vars högste befälhavare var Hitler.
Om Hitlers kännedom och ansvar för deportationen av judarna:
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The deportation of the Jews (paragraphs 6.60-67 above)
13.59 As I have already indicated, there is little dispute between the parties that the policy of deportation emerged and evolved along the lines described in the report of Longerich.
13.59 As I have already indicated, there is little dispute between the parties that the policy of deportation emerged and evolved along the lines described in the report of Longerich.
Om Hitlers kännedom och ansvar i gasningen av judar:
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Evidence of Hitler's knowledge of and/or complicity in the extermination of Jews in the gas chambers at the Reinhard camps (paragraphs 6.81-95and 6.114-144)
13.64 I turn to the issue regarding Hitler's knowledge of and complicity in the gassing programme at the Reinhard camps. In my view that issue has to be examined in the light of three propositions, each of which I understood to be accepted by Irving.
The first is that, from about November 1941, the Nazis had been engaged in carrying out a programme, which Hitler knew about and authorised, of killing by shooting many hundreds of thousands of Jews and others, initially in Russia and later spreading to towns in the Warthegau (the area of Poland incorporated into the Reich), the General Government (the remainder of Poland) and Serbia.
The second is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed in the death camps set up under Operation Reinhard.
The third is that, as Irving explicitly accepted, Hitler cannot have remained in ignorance of the extermination programme after October 1943. In the light of those propositions it is legitimate to formulate the question in this way: does the evidence establish or suggest that, whilst he approved of the genocidal policy of shooting Jews in the East, Hitler did not approve or sanction the genocidal use of the gas chambers at the Reinhard camps over the months from December 1941 until October 1943, and was also kept in ignorance that gassing on that scale was taking place.
13.64 I turn to the issue regarding Hitler's knowledge of and complicity in the gassing programme at the Reinhard camps. In my view that issue has to be examined in the light of three propositions, each of which I understood to be accepted by Irving.
The first is that, from about November 1941, the Nazis had been engaged in carrying out a programme, which Hitler knew about and authorised, of killing by shooting many hundreds of thousands of Jews and others, initially in Russia and later spreading to towns in the Warthegau (the area of Poland incorporated into the Reich), the General Government (the remainder of Poland) and Serbia.
The second is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed in the death camps set up under Operation Reinhard.
The third is that, as Irving explicitly accepted, Hitler cannot have remained in ignorance of the extermination programme after October 1943. In the light of those propositions it is legitimate to formulate the question in this way: does the evidence establish or suggest that, whilst he approved of the genocidal policy of shooting Jews in the East, Hitler did not approve or sanction the genocidal use of the gas chambers at the Reinhard camps over the months from December 1941 until October 1943, and was also kept in ignorance that gassing on that scale was taking place.
Vidare i samma stycke:
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13.65 I have used the phrase "kept in ignorance" in the preceding paragraph because it is part of the positive case advanced by Irving that the genocidal use of the gas chambers at the Reinhard camps was planned and implemented by Heydrich and overseen by Himmler. Does the evidence support Irving's contention that Hitler was kept in ignorance of the manner in which Heydrich and Himmler were setting about solving the Jewish question?
13.66 At paragraphs 6.81 to 6.105 above I have examined some of the documents on which the Defendants rely as evidence of Hitler's involvement in the extermination at the Reinhard camps, starting with the meeting between Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich on 25 October 1941 and culminating in the letter written in 1977 by Hitler's former personal secretary. Against those documents must be set Irving's comment, which I accept is accurate, that there is no reference to be found to a Hitler Befehl (Hitler order) authorising the extermination of Jews by gassing at the Reinhard Camps . But, given the secrecy which surrounded the operation of the gas chambers, I would not have expected to have found such a document. For the same reason I consider that Irving's argument as to Hitler's ignorance derives little assistance from the fact that he is able to point to a number of documents where Hitler can be found still talking of the Madagascar plan or deportation to some other destination. The need for secrecy required the use of camouflage language when the fate of Jews was under public discussion.
13.67 My conclusion on this issue is that the evidence discloses substantial, even if not wholly irrefutable, reasons for concluding not only that Hitler was aware of the gassing in the Reinhard Camps but also that he was consulted and approved the extermination. My reasons for arriving at this conclusion are, firstly, that if (as Irving accepts) Hitler knew and approved the programme of shooting Jews, it is reasonable to suppose that he would have been consulted about and approved a policy to exterminate them by another means, namely by the use of gas. I consider that there are a number of documents which suggest that Hitler knew and approved the implementation of the new policy: for example the protocol of the Wannsee conference, at which the extermination programme was discussed, records Heydrich in his opening remarks that he was speaking with the authority of Hitler. But the main reason for my conclusion is that it appears to me to be unreal to suppose that Himmler would not have obtained the authority of Hitler for the gassing programme (and even more unlikely that he would have concealed it from his Fuhrer). Himmler's Dienstkalendar provides clear evidence of the regularity of the meetings between Hitler and Himmler and of their having discussed the Jewish question at the time when Himmler was actively supervising the setting up and operation of the gas chambers in the Reinhard Camps. I therefore accept the evidence of Longerich and Browning which I have summarised at paragraph 6.105 above.
13.66 At paragraphs 6.81 to 6.105 above I have examined some of the documents on which the Defendants rely as evidence of Hitler's involvement in the extermination at the Reinhard camps, starting with the meeting between Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich on 25 October 1941 and culminating in the letter written in 1977 by Hitler's former personal secretary. Against those documents must be set Irving's comment, which I accept is accurate, that there is no reference to be found to a Hitler Befehl (Hitler order) authorising the extermination of Jews by gassing at the Reinhard Camps . But, given the secrecy which surrounded the operation of the gas chambers, I would not have expected to have found such a document. For the same reason I consider that Irving's argument as to Hitler's ignorance derives little assistance from the fact that he is able to point to a number of documents where Hitler can be found still talking of the Madagascar plan or deportation to some other destination. The need for secrecy required the use of camouflage language when the fate of Jews was under public discussion.
13.67 My conclusion on this issue is that the evidence discloses substantial, even if not wholly irrefutable, reasons for concluding not only that Hitler was aware of the gassing in the Reinhard Camps but also that he was consulted and approved the extermination. My reasons for arriving at this conclusion are, firstly, that if (as Irving accepts) Hitler knew and approved the programme of shooting Jews, it is reasonable to suppose that he would have been consulted about and approved a policy to exterminate them by another means, namely by the use of gas. I consider that there are a number of documents which suggest that Hitler knew and approved the implementation of the new policy: for example the protocol of the Wannsee conference, at which the extermination programme was discussed, records Heydrich in his opening remarks that he was speaking with the authority of Hitler. But the main reason for my conclusion is that it appears to me to be unreal to suppose that Himmler would not have obtained the authority of Hitler for the gassing programme (and even more unlikely that he would have concealed it from his Fuhrer). Himmler's Dienstkalendar provides clear evidence of the regularity of the meetings between Hitler and Himmler and of their having discussed the Jewish question at the time when Himmler was actively supervising the setting up and operation of the gas chambers in the Reinhard Camps. I therefore accept the evidence of Longerich and Browning which I have summarised at paragraph 6.105 above.
Alltså:
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Irving further accepted that the evidence indicates that the programme of shooting Jews in the East was systematic, in the sense that it originated in Berlin and was organised and co-ordinated from there.
Irving further accepted that the evidence indicates that the programme of shooting Jews in the East was systematic, in the sense that it originated in Berlin and was organised and co-ordinated from there.
och
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My conclusion on this issue is that the evidence discloses substantial, even if not wholly irrefutable, reasons for concluding not only that Hitler was aware of the gassing in the Reinhard Camps but also that he was consulted and approved the extermination.
My conclusion on this issue is that the evidence discloses substantial, even if not wholly irrefutable, reasons for concluding not only that Hitler was aware of the gassing in the Reinhard Camps but also that he was consulted and approved the extermination.
För en vidare diskussion se:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-9.html
Där resoneras kring Irvings sätt att översätta det tyska ordet ” Ausrotten”. Som jag skrev tidigare undviker jag citat för att hålla nere längden på inläggen här. Om ni vill komma direkt till ”Ausrottendebatten” sök på följande text ” The "Ausrotten" Debate” i länken ovan.
Länkarna visar också hur David Irving medvetet, eller omedvetet, har ändrat och felöversatt tyska (och andra) originalhandlingar, i samtliga fall så att ordalydelsen kommer att stödja hans egen sak..
(Irvings sätt att hantera källor blev föremål för en rätt lång analys under Lipstadträttegången http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/evidence/evans.asp)
Diskussionen om Hitlers kännedom av eller direkta ansvar för dödandet av judar fortsätter här:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-10.html
Vidare tas Hitlers sätt att beordra saker upp i Lipstadträttegången vid följande länk:
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/evidence/browning.asp
Om Hitlers sätt att ge order:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/lipstadt-deborah/response-to-irving-02.html
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"Plaintiff” är David Irving.
65. The Plaintiff relied on the absence of any written order for the extermination of the Jews bearing Hitler's signature, ignoring a basic feature of Hitler's dictatorship, namely his frequent preference for oral instructions, over written directives, especially in secret matters.
66. At p.331, in order to suggest that (at the material time) Hitler did not know of or favour a massacre of the Jews, and was not pursuing any active policy against them, the Plaintiff falsified and took out of context remarks recorded as having been made by Hitler on 25 October 1941 (in Hitler's table talk). The Plaintiff was thereby able to draw a false analogy between Hitler's attitude to the Jews, on the one hand, and his attitude to Bishop Galen (an opponent of the Euthanasia Programme) and the Vatican on the other:
65. The Plaintiff relied on the absence of any written order for the extermination of the Jews bearing Hitler's signature, ignoring a basic feature of Hitler's dictatorship, namely his frequent preference for oral instructions, over written directives, especially in secret matters.
66. At p.331, in order to suggest that (at the material time) Hitler did not know of or favour a massacre of the Jews, and was not pursuing any active policy against them, the Plaintiff falsified and took out of context remarks recorded as having been made by Hitler on 25 October 1941 (in Hitler's table talk). The Plaintiff was thereby able to draw a false analogy between Hitler's attitude to the Jews, on the one hand, and his attitude to Bishop Galen (an opponent of the Euthanasia Programme) and the Vatican on the other:
Hela rättegångens genomgång av både Irvings och Lipstadts originalkällor och de respektive parternas analyser av desamma finns att läsa i domen under rubriken ”Justification”.
Gå bara in på http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/ieindex.html och klicka på ”Judgement”.