Vinnaren i pepparkakshustävlingen!
2005-01-10, 11:31
  #1
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Trådens ämne är alltså tänkt att vara de fyra nazistiska transitläger på polsk mark som av Holocaustortodoxin utpekas som "rena förintelseläger", Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno och Treblinka II. Dessa läger var även den röda tråden i den nu låsta tråden med rubriken "Förintelsen - vi erkänner att vi ljugit."

Här en rapport av Faurisson från ett besök i Treblinka II 1988, länkat från den spännande onlinetidskriften The Revisionist som jag just börjat orientera mig i, därtill stimulerad av censurivrares och desinformatörers hätska gemenhet på forumet.

http://vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html

"---In any event, the case is settled. A hundred items of evidence, together with the book by Graf and Mattogno, show that Treblinka II could never have been anything but an ordinary and modest Durchgangslager, that is, a transit camp for Jews being transported to Majdanek, Auschwitz, or other concentration and labor camps, to the south or east.

Along with the great lie of Auschwitz, the crude lie of Treblinka belongs, therefore, in the trash can of history."


Och här en länk till VHO:s gratis downloadsida med böcker i pdf-format:

http://vho.org/dl/ (skriv in "visitor" och "download" och, om ni är intresserad, scrolla ner på downloadsidan där det finns studier om Belzec och Treblinka)

Den "officiella versionen" av vad som hände i lägren, helt baserad på "ögonvittnesuppgifter" som inte är trovärdiga, kan lätt hittas på nätet för den som vill fördjupa sig i den: men även den versionens propagandistiska framväxt får man analyserad om man läser Mattognos och Grafs böcker om Belzec och Treblinka.
Citera
2005-01-10, 15:44
  #2
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Jürgen Graf om Treblinka II, "det rena förintelselägret" som inte lämnat något spår efter de påstådda offren:

http://vho.org/tr/2004/1/Graf97-101.html

"---Richard Krege presented the initial results of his research, displayed on slides, at two conferences (in June 2001 in Washington and in January 2002 in Moscow). While the scans of Birkenau showed evidence of massive ground disturbances, strengthening support for the presence of an earlier mass grave, all traces of similar soil disturbances are missing in Treblinka and Belzec. The only logical conclusion is that these huge mass graves, containing up to one and a half million corpses (per Encyclopedia of the Holocaust: 870,000 in Treblinka and 600,000 in Belzec), never existed. This fact alone suffices to make the official version of the Holocaust collapse like a house of cards.---

In view of the special importance of these research results we have agreed to the suggestion of Castle Hill Publishers that we publish them, together with those from Belzec, in a separate book. Therefore Krege’s results were not included in the Treblinka book, which Mattogno and I completed in the spring of 2002.---

According to the official historiography, the Jews who arrived in Treblinka were told that they were in a transfer camp, where they had to shower and their clothes had to be disinfested before they continued their journey. In this way, goes the story, the Jews were enticed to enter the gas chambers. We assume that the first part of the story is correct: The Jews took showers, and their belongings were placed in disinfestation chambers. As is known, German disinfestation chambers during the war were often operated with steam. If this was the case in Treblinka, it is the key to the original version of the extermination myth, according to which the Jews were allegedly killed in Treblinka with steam. On November 15, 1942, less than four months after the opening of the camp, the resistance organization of the Warsaw ghetto published a long report entitled Treblinka: Eternal Disgrace for the German Nation, in which it was claimed that to that date two million Jews (almost 20,000 per day!) had been murdered in steam chambers. The report went on to allege that the corpses had been buried in ever larger mass graves, and that after the extermination of all Jews "the ghost of death in the steam chambers would stand before the eyes of the whole Polish people." Treblinka: Eternal Disgrace was taken quite seriously in the Warsaw ghetto. The journalist Eugenia Szaijn-Lewin entered the following in her diary:

"The worst is the death in Treblinka. In the meantime we all have become aware of Treblinka. Over there, people are boiled alive."

After the Red Army conquered the region around Treblinka in August 1944, Soviet investigative commissions set immediately to work, reporting that three million people were killed in the camp. However, the specified killing method was no longer steam, but rather suffocation achieved by sucking the air from the death chambers by means of a vacuum pump driven by a diesel engine. Gradually the diesel engine, which had at first only driven the pump, was transformed into the killing weapon itself. The author of the latest counterfeit of Treblinka reality was the Jewish carpenter Yankiel Wiernik, who, in May 1944, plagiarized the report of the resistance organization of November 1942, replacing the "steam chambers" with "gas chambers".

It is quite probable that there was a diesel engine in Treblinka: A generator set would have been needed to supply the necessary electricity, and such a set was normally driven by a diesel engine. Since diesel engine exhaust fumes smell terribly, the technical amateur Wiernik evidently believed that these exhaust fumes were a suitable means of murder. This is a gross error, for, as Friedrich P. Berg and other revisionists have emphasized, these emissions, due to their high content of oxygen and low content of carbon monoxide, are poorly suited for the killing of people; any gasoline engine would be more efficient.

Between August 1944 and the end of 1945, differing methods of extermination contended in the atrocity propaganda. The three most often mentioned were suffocation by vacuum pumping of the death chambers, diesel exhaust fumes, and steam. The Soviet-Jewish author Wassili Grossmann wrote in his horror report The Hell of Treblinka, which was published in several languages in 1945 (and according to which the "barbed wire surrounded waste land of Treblinka consumed more people than all the seas and oceans together since the beginning of mankind"), that all three techniques were used, but mostly the first one. Although a document submitted by the Polish authorities to the Nuremberg Tribunal in December 1945 stated that several hundred thousand Jews were killed in Treblinka with steam (PS-3311), the Polish judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, the author of the first forensic reports about Treblinka, decided at about the same time for diesel exhaust fumes, because this appeared to him to be the most believable of the various killing techniques offered by the witnesses. In February 1946 the former Treblinka inmate Samuel Rajzman, in testimony presented at Nuremberg, spoke only of gas chambers. Since the Gerstein report, which at that time was attracting the attention of the historians, also mentioned diesel engines as the killing weapons at Belzec and Treblinka, the diesel gas chamber became at that time "established historic fact," and the other variants disappeared into the trash bin of history. The original figure for of Treblinka victims, three million, was dropped as too unbelievable; in the following years considerably lower numbers were found satisfactory.

In toto, the various witnesses listed the following killing methods for Treblinka:

Exhaust fumes from an unspecified engine, with poison added to the fuel.

A mobile gas chamber that traveled along the mass graves and unloaded the corpses into them.

Gas chambers with delayed reaction gas, which enabled the victims to walk to the mass graves, where they lost consciousness and fell into the graves.

Quicklime in trains; according to this version Treblinka served only as a burial place.

Boiling steam.

Electric current.

Shooting with machine guns.

Suffocation by vacuum pumping of the chambers.

Chlorine gas.

Zyklon B.

Diesel exhaust fumes.

This total confusion is of course quite embarrassing for the historians. While the less venturesome, such as Raul Hilberg, were satisfied to ignore all killing techniques described by the witnesses except the diesel engine, more impudent writers stoop to falsifying historical sources. This is especially true of the Israeli professor Yitzhak Arad, author of the "standard work" Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, in which the descriptions of the resistance movement of November 1942 are reproduced in detail, but the original "steam chambers" are replaced with "gas chambers" each time!

In short: The official Treblinka version is an uninterrupted chain of absurdities. This, however, does not answer the question of the camp’s actual purpose. Such revisionists as Arthur Butz, Robert Faurisson, Mark Weber, and Andrew Allen hypothesized that Treblinka was a transfer camp many years ago. Mattogno meticulously sets forth, on the basis of numerous documents, the National Socialist policy of Jewish resettlement to the East in two chapters, and in the final chapter provides evidence upon evidence and proof upon proof that those Jews who were brought to Treblinka were indeed subsequently sent through to other destinations. In order to counter the objection that, in the end, it does not matter whether the Jews were gassed in Poland or shot farther east, Mattogno in another chapter scrutinizes the thesis of the orthodox historians, according to which the Einsatzgruppen performed a policy of systematic extermination of Jews in the occupied eastern territories, and demonstrates that this allegation is untenable.

That Treblinka served, among other things, as a transit camp to Majdanek and other work camps in the Lublin area is admitted even by the Jewish historians Tatiana Berenstein and Adam Rutkowski. In the verdict of the Demjanjuk trial in Jerusalem certain former Jewish deportees were named who arrived in Majdanek after a short stay in Treblinka. It is more difficult to prove that Jews were deported from Treblinka to the occupied Soviet areas, but at least one solidly documented proof exists. On July 31, 1942, one week after the opening of Treblinka, the Reichskommissar for White Russia, Wilhelm Kube, excitedly objected to Reichskomissar for the Eastern territories Heinrich Lohse against the transportation of 1,000 Jews from Warsaw to Minsk, on the grounds that these Jews represented a danger as potential carriers of epidemics and as supporters of the partisans. At that time all deported Jews from Warsaw arrived in Treblinka, so that those 1,000 Jews must have been sent through that camp to Minsk. This one transport already is enough to shake the foundations of the story of the "pure extermination camp," in which every Jew except for a handful of "work Jews" was immediately murdered. Whoever objects that this transport is merely an exception must ask himeself how many other such "exceptions" existed.

Of course much is still obscure: the exact number of Jews deported to Treblinka, the exact destinations of those who were transferred from there, the fate of those who survived the harsh conditions of the war. There is reason to hope that the improving accessibility to the archives in the new nations that have sprung from the former USSR will make it possible for historians who are interested in the truth to shed more and more light into this darkness.---"
Citera
2005-01-10, 15:56
  #3
Medlem
Säkre Sammys avatar
Kan du vara så vänlig och sluta posta trådar där du står för mer än 50% av inkläggen, sammanfatta de länkar du postar så kan man diskutera kring det.
Citera
2005-01-10, 16:30
  #4
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Säkre Sammy
Kan du vara så vänlig och sluta posta trådar där du står för mer än 50% av inkläggen, sammanfatta de länkar du postar så kan man diskutera kring det.

Det är bara för dig att börja diskutera, Sammy: och som du lätt kan försäkra dig om genom att jämföra det jag citerar och fetstilar med de texter de hämtas från och hänvisar till, så är det just sammanfattningar jag ägnar mig åt, någon sorts diskussionsunderlag att utgå från. För det torde väl vara att föredra att någon faktisk kunskap om de olika tolkningarna av händelseförloppen som ska dryftas finns?, annars blir det ju knappast en sakfrågedebatt på ett diskussionsforum för vuxna, utan ett infantilt käbblande på en högstadieskolgård där invektiven "nazist" och "förnekare" är det som mest lyckas göra sig hört i kaoset.

Okej, jag fattar att du upplever det som lite påfrestande med min i dina ögon "dominanta" approach, men syftet är just att initiera diskussioner som håller sig till de oskrivna spelreglerna: sakliga, fritt frågande, tolkande, ifrågasättande diskussioner. Se det så här: ju mer och bättre du diskuterar, desto färre jobbiga Ezzelinoinlägg behöver du läsa!
Citera
2005-01-10, 17:29
  #5
Medlem
Ytterligare ett trovärdigt vittnesmål:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworl...386675,00.html

Taget från sidan:

"The Nazi's testimony

Oskar Gröning was at his local philately club when a fellow stamp collector cast doubts on the Holocaust. Gröning knew he was wrong - because 50 years earlier he had served at Auschwitz. Laurence Rees on what happened when the ex-SS soldier decided to finally confront his past"
Citera
2005-01-10, 17:40
  #6
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Snackaren
Ytterligare ett trovärdigt vittnesmål:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworl...386675,00.html

Taget från sidan:

"The Nazi's testimony

Oskar Gröning was at his local philately club when a fellow stamp collector cast doubts on the Holocaust. Gröning knew he was wrong - because 50 years earlier he had served at Auschwitz. Laurence Rees on what happened when the ex-SS soldier decided to finally confront his past"

Har du mer information om denne frispråkige äldre frimärkssamlare?
Googling på "Oskar Gröning (även Groning, Groening) Auschwitz" ger inget mer än Guardians och BBC:s uppgifter. Och vi vill väl inte att det ska visa sig vara en sådan besvikelse som herr Wilkomirski, Holocaustkultens utskämda fantasifoster:

http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/staff/ro...ilkomirski.htm
Citera
2005-01-10, 22:39
  #7
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Ezzelino
Har du mer information om denne frispråkige äldre frimärkssamlare?
Googling på "Oskar Gröning (även Groning, Groening) Auschwitz" ger inget mer än Guardians och BBC:s uppgifter. Och vi vill väl inte att det ska visa sig vara en sådan besvikelse som herr Wilkomirski, Holocaustkultens utskämda fantasifoster:

http://www.valt.helsinki.fi/staff/ro...ilkomirski.htm
Jag tror inte han har mer än länken, men den har han nu spridit i 4 trådar, så den får väl ses som ett viktigt bevis och vittnesmål till vidare utredning har visat vad det rör sig om!

Intressant länk förresten. Speciellt detta:

Koncentrationslägren har länge varit ett teoretiskt argument i debatten mellan konstruktionister och realister. 'Om vi inte tar ställning till vad som verkligen hänt, hur kan vi då motsäga de revisionistiska historiker som säger att gaskamrarna är ett påhitt?'
Citera
2005-01-11, 21:44
  #8
Banned
Varg-Olle (?)s avatar
Lite repetition om dödslägren m.m.

Här kör ju Ezzelino rundgång efter rundgång med sina påståenden, hämtade från de nynazisterna närstående www.ihr.org och www.vho.org med bl.a. den totalt sanslöse Jürgen Graf, som i sann paranoisk anda uttalat:

"Man undrar varför lögnen upprätthålls och varför nästan ingen får veta något om revisionisterna och deras argument. Orsaken är följande: Spridningen av revisionisternas rön hindras av den mest fulländade censur som existerat någonsin i historien, en censur som mycket få ens vet att den existerar. Vilka som gagnas av denna censur, för vilka den är livsnödvändig, hur den utövas, varför det i vårt föregivet tabubefriade samhälle finns ett stort tabu, nämligen förintelsen, varför vi i det moderna samhället får lov att tvivla på allt och alla, till och med på Gud Fader, hans Son Jesus Kristus och den Helige Ande, men absolut inte tvivla på gaskamrarna i Auschwitz och Treblinka - alla dessa frågor skall vi senare gå närmare in på."

Ezzelino har, också i sann paranoisk anda, flera gånger uttalat att samtliga rättegångar i Väst-tyskland om Förintelsen och gaskammarna efter kriget, alltså fram till modern tid, har varit styrda av falska erkännanden, falska vittnesmål, falska dokument o.s.v. och att alla domare och försvarsadvokater ingått en hemlig (och aldrig avslöjad!) överenskommelse om att detta skulle godtagas för att de tilltalade skulle kunna dömas så milt om möjligt!

Se, som motvikt på dessa lindrigt sagt bisarra påståenden, domsluten i några processer http://translate.google.com/translat...r.de/index.php (men tyvärr är inte allt översatt till engelska!)!

Samt en del andra länkar (med massor av länkar om praktiskt taget allt under Förintelsen) som motvikt mot revisionisternas vinklingar och hjärnsläpp:

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...holocaust.htm/

http://www.jewishlink.net/holocaust.html

http://idgr.de (på engelska, tryck på "Information for international readers"

http://www.ghwk.de/schwed/wannsee-konferensen.htm

http://www.jewishlink.net/holocaust.html

Och så ett inlägg, ur ett svar till Göran Persson med litet tillägg:

"Som jag försökt förklara för Göran Persson: Det har aldrig hållits några rättegångar ang "massgasningar" i de koncentrationsläger som låg på tysk mark (undantag Dachau, där det fanns en gskammare, men där det inte var frågan om massgasningar). De många rättegångar som hållits har gällt "vanligt" dödande, tortyr, medicinska experiment o.s.v.

Man blev alltså ganska tidigt efter kriget, med ett eller två fortfarande omtvistade undantag (men inte heller där har det påståtts att det var MASSgasningar) klar över hur det förhöll sig med detta.

Göran Perssons glädje över "den reviderade uppfattningen", som han tydligen tror blev känd först 1960, är alltså både osaklig och överdriven. Dessutom fastslog ju ovannämnde Dr Broszat också att massgasningar förekommit i de kända utrotningslägren i Polen, dv.s. förutom Auschwitz även Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Maidanek och Chelmno. Och inte heller detta var ju något nytt!

Jag har tidigare gett länkar till detta som t.ex. om järnvägstransporterna till dödslägren (varifrån alltså nästan inga återkom), gravutgrävningar där, men även http://www.deathcamps.org/, där särskilt "Operation Reinhard" bör nämnas med dess underlänkar. Mycket av detta har också kunnat beläggas i rättegångar, bl.a. den s.k. Stangl-Treblinkarättegången i Västtyskland 1969-70.

Göran Persson skriver i ett annat inlägg:: "---------------. Och inte nog därmed: somliga gärningsmän har i rättegångar erkänt gaskamrarnas existens! Hur bara kan man tvivla inför denna överväldigande bevismängd? Med förlov sagt: på detta sätt kan man också bevisa att det finns häxor. I århundraden trodde hela Europa på häxor. ---"
Men det är ju faktiskt så, att jämsides med de åtalades i t.ex. Stangl-Treblinkarättegången 1969-70 helt eller delvisa erkännanden, det fanns en uppsjö av vittnesmål och dokument. De bestridanden som förekom var i huvudsak att de försökte förringa sin egna roll i massdödandet, samt att de "bara lytt order". Och de hotades inte heller av dödstraff, eftersom detta var avskaffat i Väst-Tyskland.

En intressant detalj beträffande massdödandet i "Aktion Reinhard" : Det sändes ett mycket kort och krypterat telegram om antalet offer från den på http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/ omnämnde SS-Sturmbannführers Hermann Höfle som bl.a. talade om "zusammen 1 274 166". Den överenstämmer nämligen med ett i Tyskland återfunnet dokument som återges på den sistnämnda webbsidan och där antalet redovisade offer också sammanlagt blir den nämnda siffran, 1 274 166 . Telegrammet snappades upp i England och man lyckades tolka det utan att dock riktigt förstå vad det handlade om. Men detta blev alltså klarlagt efter kriget.

Se på nämnda sida kopian av telegrammet (med infälld bild av Hermann Höfle) med bl.a. texten "Betr: 14-tägige Meldung Einsatz Reinhard" och siffrorna där står för antalet offer i resp. läger. Saken med ytterligare upplysningar om "Aktion Reinhard" är mycket utförligt belyst på webbsidan http://www.zeit.de/archiv/2002/03/20...-auschwitz.xml ," på tyska.
-----
Ur ett annat inlägg:
Vid Irving-Lipstadträttegången beskrev den inkallade experten professor Robert Jan van Pelt mycket ingående såväl gaskammare- som krematorieanläggningarna. Han kunde göra detta eftersom nazisterna glömt att förstöra en omgång kopior(de återfanns efter det järnridån fallit i Ryssland) av byggnadsritningarna till dessa, samt med hjälp av SS-oficerares berättelser och andra vittnesmål. Vidare hade beställningarna av krematorieutrustningen återfunnits hos vederbörande firma.

På grundval av detta angavs den teoretiska kapaciteten för de fem krematorierna vara 4756 lik under en 24-timmarsperiod. Det angavs: "Efter...föruppvärmning behöver ugnen inte mer bränsle på grund av hettan som kropparna alstrar. Den kommer att upprätthålla den nödvändiga temperaturen genom självuppvärmning. ....(med) fortsatt höga temperaturer genom avgivande av människofett".

Koksförråden var inte särskilt stora. De var delvis belägna i krematoriebyggnaderna. Samt beräknades medelförbrukningen av koks med angivna metoder av professor van Pelt till 3.2 kg per lik.
-------
Domarens konklusion i Irving-Lipstadträttegången sedan han funnit att "de olika beviskategorierna sammanfaller": " (Jag) har kommit till slutsatsen att ingen objektiv, rättsinnig historiker på allvar skulle betvivla att det fanns gaskamrar i Auschwitz eller att att de användes för att döda hundratusentals judar". - Se gärna boken "Förintelsen inför rätta" av D.D. Guttenplan (PANbok) som handlar om denna rättegång och mycket om Auschwitz."

Länkar ang. gasnings- och kremationsförfarandet i Auschwitz:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...st/layman.html
särskilt underlänkarna Krema I Krema II, III, IV, Zyklon B, Crematoria
http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dyn...dy%2Ddisposal/

Länkar ang. gasnings- och kremationsförfarandet i de andra dödslägren (där användes alltså dieselavgaser)
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/ och
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/reinhard/part01/

Och som sagt, under http://history1900s.about.com/librar...lholocaust.htm hittar man länkar om det mesta under Förintelsen. T.ex. om Treblinka http://history1900s.about.com/msubh70.htm .

Sedan något om det som vanligt lögnaktiga påståendet om att dokument saknas om Förintelsen: Det finns en hel del här på webben, men gå gärna till ett bibliotek, där det oftast finns många bra böcker om Förintelsen, även med dokument. Läs t.ex. "Davidsstjärnan - Judeförföljelserna i Europa 1933 -45" , där det t.ex. dokumenteras att ett visst, vanligen stort, antal judar i samband med en aktion eller transport "specialbehandlats". För även om det mesta förstördes när nazisterna övergav förintelselägren kunde de inte förstöra andra stabers och järnvägars brevväxling samt telegram- och teleprintertrafik, liksom att av förintelselägrens avsända givetvis också återfinns hos dessa förvaltningar.
------
Som jag skrev är det nog numera bara undantagsvis som processer inleds mot s.k. Förintelseförnekare även i Väst-Tyskland! Dessutom har ju Internet tillkommit och det finns alltså massor av "icke åtalade" nynazistiska/revisionistiska webbsidor!

MÅNGA ANTISEMITER åtalades till en början, men man började avstå från åtal, då rättegångarna alltmera utvecklades till vämjeliga tillställningar. Så var det när Ernst Zündel, författare till boken "Den Hitler vi älskade", åtalades i Kanada för att ha förnekat Förintelsen. Det blev ett propagandanummer för revisionisterna, ytterligare en kränkning av offren. Åklagarens vittnen, överlevande från bland annat Auschwitz, fick svara på sårande frågor från Zündel och hans advokat allt medan de och hans vänner skrattade och gjorde sig breda. Snart fick man intrycket att det var offren som satt på de anklagades bänk. ---

Samma sak hände i Tyskland när Bela Ewald Althans i juli 1995 åtalades för förnekandet av Förintelsen. Han dömdes till tre och ett halvt års fängelse men blev samtidigt kändis, en massmedial "personlighet". Och på liknande sätt utvecklades de rättegångar som Amsterdams distriktsdomstol höll 1996 mot Simon Sheppard vilken hade spritt Förintelseförnekande propaganda utanför Anne Franks hus, som Stuttgarts tingsrätt våren 1995 genomförde mot German Scheer som hade förnekat existensen av gaskamrarna, som Wiens domstol i september 1995 anställde mot Franz Radl och Peter Binder då dessa hade förnekat Förintelsen.

NAZISTISKA propagandaspektakel med propaganda för antisemiterna och med förnedrade offer och vittnen, är det väl ingen som önskar. Eller?
Citera
2005-01-12, 06:22
  #9
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Carl Nordlings intressanta reflektioner om demografisk statistik och den överväldigande bristen på bevis för vad patologiska lögnare påstår med sådan dogmatisk säkerhet, nämligen att de "vet" och lätt kan bevisa att miljoner judar "förintades" i "de rena förintelselägren":

http://vho.org/tr/2004/2/Nordling155-158.html

"---In the 1961 version of his book The Destruction of the European Jews, Raul Hilberg states that 50,000 or 1.5% of the Jews of Poland survived the Holocaust.[1] 24 years later, in the 1985 version of the same book, the same author states that the number of survivors was about 350,000 or 10% of the total.[2] Naturally, one wonders how trustworthy such figures are if they can easily sevenfold within 24 years. Will the number of Jewish survivors keep changing in Hilberg's imagination?

Luckily, there are three other standard works in the field, the Encyclopaedia Judaica,[3] the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust[4] and Dimension des Völkermords.[5] Let us see what they say about the war time fate of the Jews in Poland.

According to the Judaica, there were 3,351,000 Jews in Poland in September 1939.[6] From these, 55,509 are said to have been registered as survivors in June 1945. This number is said to comprise Jews having survived in Poland and Jews who returned from their wartime sojourn in the USSR. Another 13,000 Polish Jews are said to have survived as members of the Polish Army, and 1,000 would have survived posing as "Aryans" (and for some reason not counted among the 55,509). To these, the Encyclopedia Judaica generously adds 250,000 survivors in the USSR and 50,000 in camps in Germany, thus bringing the total up to 369,000 or 11% of those presumably present in 1939.

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust gives a total of 380,000 survivors, 165,000 thereof having returned from the USSR and 75,500 having survived in Poland.[7] These two groups, comprising altogether 240,500, are said to have registered in Poland in June 1946. The rest, 139,500, would presumably be Jews who survived abroad and stayed abroad after the war. Even those who returned to Poland seem to have been eager to shake the Polish dust off their shoes as soon as possible. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust tells us that within the next year 160,500 of the registrees left Poland, leaving only 80,000 behind. Apparently, Poland was not a preferred place of abode for the Polish Jews when Poland had become practically "deutschenrein" (clear of Germans) and surely free of National Socialists.

Dimension gives the number of 2,700,000 Polish victims of the Holocaust. The number of Jews in hiding is said to have been 300,000 or 100,000 according to various researchers. Dimension further quotes a certain Shmuel Krakowski who estimates the total number of survivors at 80,000, including both "illegals" and camp internees who managed to survive. Dimension reduces the number of returned Jews from the USSR to 130,000, but states on the other hand that no less than 98,071 Jews were members of the Unit of Polish Patriots (within the Red Army). Many other diverging figures are mentioned, and finally Frank Golczewski, the author of the chapter on Poland, decides on 300,000 as the "realistic" number of survivors "regarding the Jews living within the borders of the Polish State after 1945" (whatever that may mean).

To sum up: The standard works provide no unambiguous information about how the Holocaust befell the Jews of Poland. Much is pure speculation, and in general it all depends on the veracity of a list on page 495 in Dimension telling us that 2,019,000 Polish Jews were exterminated in the camps of Kulmhof, Sobibór, Belzec, Treblinka, Auschwitz, and Majdanek (974,000 thereof in Treblinka alone). About 700,000 would have died in ghettos, in labor camps or would have been murdered by Einsatzgruppen or by ordinary criminals.Thus, the figure of 2,700,000 victims seems to require that about two million of them were exterminated by the Germans. Dimension offers no proof, however, of even two thousand people, let alone two million, being actually put to death in the camps mentioned. And it is well known that the usual evidence for mass murder is totally missing in the areas where these camps were located. No mass graves, no heaps of human bones or human ashes are to be found there.

One gets a similar impression from a generally very well informed report by Eugene M. Kulischer of 1943: The Displacement of Population in Europe.[8] This book contains detailed data about deportations of Polish Jews. The author quotes sources like The Black Book of Poland (1942), S. Segal, The New Order in Poland (1942), Poland Fights (1942), Contemporary Jewish Record (April 1943), and Polish Review (1943). Yet still, there is nothing in it that indicates knowledge of the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews, which are said to have already been exterminated in Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, and Treblinka by the end of 1942, according to Dimension.[9]
---"
Citera
2005-01-12, 07:37
  #10
Banned
Varg-Olle (?)s avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Ezzelino
Carl Nordlings intressanta reflektioner om demografisk statistik och den överväldigande bristen på bevis för vad patologiska lögnare påstår med sådan dogmatisk säkerhet, nämligen att de "vet" och lätt kan bevisa att miljoner judar "förintades" i "de rena förintelselägren".
http://vho.org/tr/2004/2/Nordling155-158.html
Carl Nordlings "undersökning" har blivit ordentlig sågad i en diskussion med sten. b under "Auschwitz-myten", http://forum.flashback.info/scandina...=Carl+Nordling , där även Walter Sannings "sanningar" om de judiska befolkningstalen berördes. Dessutom framgår av Wannsee-prokollet och samtida uttalanden av Polens generalguvernör Hans Frank att antalet judar där omkring 1941 uppskattades till mellan 2-3 miljoner.

Det mesta kring dessa dödsläger verksamhet, alltså Belzec, Treblinka och Sobibor finns på http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/r...doverview.html med dess många underlänkar (se bl.a. de många transporterna dit) och betr. Belzec t.ex. på http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/belzecoverview.html

Utdrag ur "Testimonies of Belzec SS-Men" http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/...nt/DocBelz.htm

SS-Unterscharführer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser trial.
Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71:
After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas...
I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color. Some of them had their closed, other's eyes rolled. The bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth...

SS-Oberscharführer Kurt Bolender, In the Belzec-Oberhauser trial>
[Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 76:
Before the Jews undressed, Oberscharführer Michel made a speech to them. On these occasions, he used to wear a white coat to give the impression that he was a physician. Michel announced to the Jews that they would be sent to work, but before this they would have to take baths and undergo disinfection so as to prevent the spread of diseases... After undressing, the Jews were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians...After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the Ukrainians closed the doors. The motor which supplied the gas was switched on by a Ukrainian named Emil and by a German driver called Erich Bauer from Berlin. After the gassing, the door were opened and the corpses removed....

SS-Untersturmführer Oberhauser on the death camp at Belzec.
Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 228-230:
The camp of Belzec was situated north-east of the Tomaszo'w to Lemberg [Lvov] road beyond the village of Belzec. As the camp needed a siding for the arriving transports the camp was built about 400 meters from Belzec station. The camp itself was divided into two sections: section 1 and section 2. The siding led directly from Belzec station into section 2 of the camp, in which the undressing barracks as well as the gas installations and the burial field were situated...
The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August 1942 can be divided into two phases. During the first series of experiments there were two to three transports consisting of four to six freight cars each holding twenty to forty persons. On the average 150 Jews were delivered and killed per transport. At that stage the gassings were not yet part of a systematic eradication action but were carried out to test and study closely the camp's capacity and the technical problems involved in carrying out a gassing...
At the beginning of May 1942 SS-Oberführer Brack from the Führer's chancellery suddenly came to Lublin. With Globocnik he discussed resuming the extermination of the Jews. Globocnik said he had too few people to carry out this programme. Brack stated that the euthanasia programme had stopped and that the people from T4 would from now on be detailed to him on a regular basis so that the decisions taken at the Wannsee conference could be implemented. As it appeared that it would not be possible for the Einsatzgruppen to clear individual areas of Jews and the people in the large ghettos of Warsaw and Lemberg by shooting them, the decision had been taken to set up two further extermination camps which would be ready by 1 August 1942, namely Treblinka and Sobibor. The large-scale extermination programme [Vernichtungsaktion] was due to start on 1 August 1942.
About a week after Brack had come to Globocnik, Wirth and his staff returned to Belzec. The second series of experiments went on until 1 August 1942. During this period a total of five to six transports (as far as I am aware) consisting of five to seven freight cars containing thirty to forty people came to Belzec. The Jews from two of these transports were gassed in the small chamber, but then Wirth had the gas huts pulled down and built a massive new building with a much larger capacity. It was here that the Jews from the rest of the transport were gassed.
During the first experiments and the first set of transports in the second series of experiments bottled gas was still used for gassing; however, for the last transports of the second series of experiments the Jews were killed with the exhaust gases from a tank or lorry engine which was operated by Hackenholt.

Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing at Belzec.
Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244:
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August 1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were killed at the the camp at Belzec...
During this first visit I was taken around by a certain Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however, first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp, spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next morning.
A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off their shoes...
After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut, where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be killed here...
Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so that the bodies could be removed. People were led from a corridor into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall. Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents to the chambers opened. Whether they were stop-valves or vents I would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led directly to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.
Citera
2005-01-12, 11:26
  #11
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Exakt varför Pfannenstiels "vittnesbörd" är totalt värdelöst dryftades tämligen utförligt i den låsta tråden, liksom det häpnadsväckande faktum att sju av åtta i "Belzecrättegången", bland dem ovan citerade Schluch och Bolender, frikändes som tack för att de samarbetade med "rättvisan" och vagt bekräftade "Förintelse"-trosbekännelsen. De dömdes alltså för att ha medverkat till 300.000 judars dieselgasning i Belzec, men fick ingen påföljd...
Den ende som dömdes, Oberhauser, fick 3 1/2 år i fängelse, han var också den som vägrade tala under rättegången.

Om varför det rent allmänt är så illa ställt både med "ögonvittnesmål" (ofta avslöjade som rent mytomaniska) och "bekännelser" under de mycket speciella omständigheter som de förhands bestämda lägerrrättegångarna inneburit, förklaras av Manfred Köhler nedan, i en essä i samlingsvolymen Dissecting the Holocaust:

"In the debate about the Holocaust one of the main arguments of popular opinion is that there are a great many statements of eyewitnesses to document the National Socialist mass extermination, and that especially the many confessions of perpetrators among the SS are irrefutable proof of the existence of a program of deliberate extermination of the Jews in the Third Reich.[2] For this reason, it is claimed, the lack of documentary and material evidence is irrelevant.[3]

First of all, it is incorrect to say that there is no material evidence. The present work is a compendium of such material evidence, which, however, all goes to refute certain aspects of the Holocaust as these are related by witnesses and maintained accordingly by the courts and by academia. The justice system as well as academics of the establishment ignore this material evidence; nevertheless, the question arises as to how eyewitness testimony is to be evaluated.

It is important to note that neither objective historians nor jurists may uncritically accept everything that someone recounts as being the plain truth, but must establish the value of such reports. The first step in this process is to fit eyewitness testimony properly into the hierarchy of the various types of evidence. Then one must consider how the individual testimony came to be – for example, whether there were manipulative factors that may have impinged on the witness and influenced his testimony.---

From a judicial point of view, confessions – both in and out of court – are considered to be circumstantial evidence, since past experience has shown that a large part of all confessions are false. False confessions may be made in order to

cover for a third party;
bask in the limelight of a crime;
put a stop to grueling interrogation;
gain a mitigated sentence by exhibiting remorse and repentance;
as a result of psychological disorders; etc…

In orthodox Holocaust studies material evidence is practically nonexistent:

To date, not a single mass grave has been searched for, found, exhumed or examined relative to this subject complex.[14]
Not one of the allegedly numerous and giant burning sites has been looked for, located, dug up or examined.
In no case were the alleged murder weapons sought and found, i.e., examined forensically by international committees or by courts under the rule of law.
---

Part of the testimony or statements regarding the Holocaust came in the form of written declarations or, more recently, as radio and television programs. In both cases it is easy to assess these statements in terms of the points listed under 2, but there is usually no opportunity to speak with the witness personally in order to learn more details and to establish his credibility and the plausibility of his testimony, for example by means of cross-examination. Critiques of the statements published in the various media are both numerous and extensive,[17] and a more comprehensive work was presented recently.[18] However, these witnesses usually evade the requests of critical contemporaries to make themselves available to cross-examination.[19] And while radio and television regularly present new witnesses, they never ask them any critical questions, and deny interested researchers and lawyers access to these witnesses by keeping their address or even their entire identity secret. But these paper- and celluloid-witnesses can only be accorded evidential value once their statements have stood up to critical examination. In the following chapter, Robert Faurisson reports about the first two of such a critical examination of this kind of witness to date. In this section, therefore, we will focus primarily on statements made in court, particularly since the supposed justness of the German justice system prompts the public to accord these a greater significance.---

When we discuss in the following the witness testimony and confessions that represent almost the entirety of the foundation on which the structure of the Holocaust rests, we must bear in mind that for the most part these statements were made in the course of trials or at least for the purpose of incriminating or exonerating someone before a court or the public. Practically no eyewitness accounts exist that were made outside a courtroom situation and free of emotion. The subject matter itself and the emotions with which it is charged have seen to that. The truth of testimony and confessions must therefore be carefully examined before the court by qualified experts – something that regularly does not happen in the so-called "NSG trials".[20] And all the more we must ask to what extent such testimony can serve the cause of a science dependent for its closest possible approach to the truth on reports not tainted by emotion. It is already a very questionable procedure to try to ‘write history’ through eyewitness testimony in court and through the verdicts based thereon, even if both were the result of trials conducted strictly under the rule of law. The procedure becomes all the more suspect when those who ‘write the history’ draw on eyewitness testimony as evidence even when this testimony was rejected by the ruling court as lacking credibility.[21]

The science of historiography is thus faced with the dilemma that it has only these at least partially questionable statements to rely on, and must therefore make do with them. But then it is all the more important for this science to consider the circumstances under which these statements came about, for their value depends not least of all on how fairly the prosecution, the defense and the Court, but also the media and the general public were disposed towards the witnesses and the accused."
Citera
2005-01-12, 14:32
  #12
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Fortsättning av Köhlers essä, nyttig läsning för alla skadeglada självgoda grisar på forumet som inte har något emot tortyr så länge det drabbar "de onda" - och som därför bestrider att sådan tortyr överhuvudtaget ägt rum! Äckligt satans beteende, som avslöjar er skoningslöst!

"Preparation for these trials included the interrogation of suspects and witnesses in various camps and prisons known as torture chambers today, such as Ebensee, Freising, Oberursel, Zuffenhausen and Schwäbisch Hall.[33] Rückerl comments succinctly:

"Even the Americans themselves soon objected to the way in which some American military tribunals conducted their trials, particularly to the fact that what was repeatedly used as evidence in these trials were confessions of the accused which had been obtained in preliminary hearings, sometimes under the worst possible physical and psychological pressure."[34]

In fact, until 1949 there were several American investigating committees which looked into a part of those accusations that had been brought by German and also by American defense attorneys, particularly by R. Aschenauer, G. Froeschmann and W. M. Everett.[32][35][36] However, these committees – whose reports were published only in part, and not until public pressure had been brought to bear[37] – were accused by the American side of being merely symbolic fig-leaves for the Army and for politics alike, since they had served merely to cover up the true extent of the scandal.[38] For example, the National Council for Prevention of War commented on the conclusions of the Baldwin Commission, which exonerated the Army from grave misdemeanors, as follows:

"The Commission concluded its report with recommendations for reform of future proceedings of this sort – but these recommendations give the lie to all the excuses and exonerations making up the greatest part of the report. In effect, the bottom line stated, ‘Even if you didn’t do it, we don’t want you to do it again’ […]."[39]

Senator J. McCarthy, who had been sent by the American Senate to act as an observer, turned out to be especially committed. Protesting against the collaboration between the members of the investigating committee and the American Army in their efforts to cover up the scandal, he resigned his function as observer after only two weeks and gave a moving address to the U.S. Senate.[40] The manner in which the Americans extorted confessions from accused persons, or statements from reluctant witnesses subjected to automatic arrest both in the prisons for those awaiting trial as well as during the main hearing in Dachau, left clearly visible marks: the methods used were:

skin burns
destruction of the bed of the (finger-, i.e., toe-)nails with burning matches
torn-out fingernails
knocked-in teeth
broken jaws
crushed testicles
wounds of all kinds due to beatings with clubs
brass knuckles and kicks
being locked up naked in cold, damp and dark rooms for several days
imprisonment in hot rooms with nothing to drink
mock trials
mock convictions
mock executions
bogus clergymen, and many more.[41],[42]

According to Joachim Peiper, principal defendant in the Malmedy Trial, what was even worse than these so-called third-degree interrogation methods was the feeling of being completely at the mercy of others while being totally cut off from the outside world and one’s fellow prisoners. Another method the Americans used, which was often successful, was to play the prisoners off against each other with threats and promises in order to obtain false incriminating statements. This would help to break the prisoners’ resistance, which had its roots in the solidarity among them (second-degree interrogations).[43]---

Up to the start of the trials the accused had no legal representation whatsoever, and even during the trials the defense attorneys rarely provided effective support, since these defense counsels (appointed by the Court) in many cases were themselves citizens of the victorious powers, usually with a poor command of the German language. They showed little interest in defending their clients and sometimes even acted blatantly as prosecutors, going so far as to threaten the defendants and to persuade them to make false confessions of guilt.[49] But even if, like American attorney W. M. Everett for example, they were willing to carry out their duties as defense counsels, the prosecution and the Court made this almost impossible for them: the defense was reluctantly given only partial access to pertinent documents, and conversations with the accused were not possible until just before and sometimes not even until after the trials had begun, and only ever under Allied supervision. Frequently it was not until just before the trial that the defense was informed of the charges, which tended to be sweeping and general in nature.[50] Motions to hear witnesses for the defense, or to contest evidence such as extorted statements, were usually refused.[51] And this was fully in accordance with the regulations of the American Occupation Power; Article 7 of Ordinance Number 7 of the Military Government for the American Zone states, with respect to the charter of certain military tribunals:

"The Tribunals shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence […] The tribunal shall afford the opposing party such opportunity to question the […] probative value of such evidence as in the opinion of the tribunal the ends of justice require."[52]

It was left to the Court to decide what was necessary. In other words, the protocol was purely arbitrary.

It is an interesting matter to determine how the incriminating statements, especially those made by former inmates of the concentration camps, are to be evaluated. The prosecution used a special technique to obtain these statements – so-called "stage shows" or "revues".[53] For this purpose the prosecution gathered up former concentration camp inmates and put them into an auditorium. The accused were placed on a well-lit stage while the former inmates sat in the darkened room and could bring any and all conceivable accusations against the accused, accompanied at times by furious yelling and the most vile curses. In those cases where, contrary to expectation, no charges were made against an accused, or when those accusations that were made seemed insufficient, the prosecution helped matters along by persuading and sometimes even threatening the witnesses.[54] If this shameful tactic still did not suffice to obtain incriminating statements, the prosecution nevertheless did not shy away from a trial; exonerating statements were simply destroyed by the prosecution.[55] These stage-shows continued until an American officer donned an SS uniform and appeared on the stage before the howling witnesses, who promptly incriminated him as a concentration camp thug.[56]"
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