2005-05-03, 21:55
  #13
Bannlyst
A student on the last day of classes spills his "soda" right in the entrance to the cafateria minutes before lunchtime. The spill is ignored as the sudents pour in to reach their seats and wait in line to get their food. Hundreds walk through the spill getting it on their shoes and spreading it all over the lunchroom. Withing 30 minutes the entire room is filled with fumes, hundreds have been exposed to toxic levels of dimethylmercury. By the end of the day the chemical has been spread into every classroom, onto every student; thousands could be exposed, but none will know. The summer draws to a close, many students are away at college, then they start to die.

A suicide trooper strolls into the front entrance of a busy New York police station. He sits down, he open a water bottle, he dumps it out under his seat, he gets up and leaves. He repeats this at every precinct in the city. This goes on for weeks, the suicide trooper goes everywhere cops are. Thousands of cops are poisoned, and he himself is overcome with the poison. He crawls off to die and is forgotton. Months later thousands of police officers in New York are striken down. Chaos reins as drug lords and petty crooks rise up to take advantage of the lack of police. Murders, rapes, robberies, arsons... The national guard is called out, the city is shut down, the government is placed on high alert. Every police force in the country is stricken with fear, are they next?

Multiply this by 10 or even 100. Suicide troops visiting every ballgame, every football game, every basketball game. Suicide troops visiting the common rooms of major universities, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, CalTech. Suicide troops visiting every major police station in Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Miami. They could even visit the lunchrooms of NASA, Boeing, Los Alamos, Ford, GM, Microsoft, Intel, and all of the fortune 500 boardrooms and offices.

Maybe they won't kill that many, but the sheer amount of terror inflicted on this country would paralyze the nation. Our sporting events attacked means no more sports, or large gatherings, attacks at universities would mean our nations greatest minds are in jeporady, an attack on our nations greatest corporations would send stocks plummeting and our economy into such a death spiral that it may take 10 years to emerge from.

The elimination of hundreds of the "best and brightest" of Americas future scientists, as direct casualties of mercury poisoning, as well as the degradation of the brains of the thousands of survivors through mercury damaging their neurons, in addition to the toxic contamination of the universities themselves, would constitute a far more lasting threat to America than the loss of a couple of buildings and the expendable bees within.

The minds that inhabit MIT, UCLA, Princeton, etc., are the very pinnacle of technological innovation that feeds Americas economy. The new technologies they develop are why our military is unbeatable, our economy #1 in the world, our culture so pervasive, etc.

Eradicating a few hundred of these elite brains will, in the short term, send us into a mild panic. But it's the long term effect, as the new ideas that would keep us in the forefront of world technology, never become as the brain of the graduate that would have thought them up is now dead or damaged.

This is chaos theory in action. Small actions in the beginning are amplified through time. The ol' "Butterfly flapping it's wings in Japan causes a hurricane in Florida" effect.
Citera
2005-05-03, 21:56
  #14
Bannlyst
A few decades after this kind of attack, we'd be on par with some 2nd tier countries, like europe, not stone-age like the third world, but also not the First World Superpower that we are because of our technological lead.

The worst part, of course, is that this sort of attack would be piss easy to do, and impossible to defend against.

Unlike blowing up a couple of highly visible, but ultimately worthless buildings, killing off the real brains of the nation (politicans are useless!) would have a VERY serious impact on Americas future.

Our "leaders" are worried about protecting bridges and other replaceable infrastructure while the minds that would be the ones to conceive of the bridge, and design the machines to build them, and engineer it into reality, are left totally unprotected and vulnerable.

Even if not one single person died from this mercury attack, the damage to their brains would be sufficient to degrade them, especially insidious as the toxin could linger for months or years, slowly degrading the average IQ of the schools students as they spend years sucking up toxic mercury fumes.

For some time I was thinking of starting a new thread about this but I have no courage to do so since I am a newbie.

IMHO, succinylcholine is a very fast acting substance which almost immediately paralyse skeletal muscles thereby causing suffocation of the victim. Although direct injection is recommended, MSDS of this substance recommends using respiratory equipment since inhalation may also cause paralysis. In addition the metabolic products of this substance naturally occur in the body like succinic acid in Crebs (sp?) cycle and choline whose purpose I don't exactly know.

If anyone interested I may give out some suggested synthesis of this substance.
Edit :
Forgot to add that since the metaboliation products of this substance are naturally occurring (endogenous ?) substance, they are almost impossible to determine in forensic

Hereunder I suggest some chemical equations, you have to judge which one is best and how? Secondly, why other are false, with detailed logical answer?

Here under I followed some of the following equations to get the DIMETHYL MERCURY in my laboratory, would you suggest which one is best:

1. 2CH3OH + Hg ===> C2H6Hg + H2O2
Methanol Mercury Dimethyl Hydrogen
Mercury Peroxide

2. HgCl2 + 2CH3OH ===> (CH3)2Hg + 2HCl + O2
Mercuric Methanol Dimethyl Hydrogen Oxygen
Chloride Mercury Chloride
Gas

3. Hg2Cl2 + 4CH3OH ===> 2(CH3)2Hg + 2HCl + H2O + O3
Mercurous Methanol Dimethyl Hydrogen Water Ozone
Chloride Mercury Chloride
Gas

Note: It will appreciated if you suggest any other formula to get DIMETHYL MERCURY in the laboratory with chemical equations.

I don't know if any of those will work hbx53. I do know the following will work:
2RLi + HgX2 ===> R2Hg + 2LiX
alkyl lithium + mercury halide (Cl or Br) gives dialkyl mercury and lithium halide. For dimethyl mercury use methyl lithium.
__________________
Citera
2005-05-03, 21:57
  #15
Bannlyst
could you provide recipe of methyl lithium? how can we prepare it in a simple way?

Mega and Chade give you enough info about making it hbx53. Only other synthesis known to me is from anaerobic bacterias exposed to elemental mercury. That substance is volatile and lipid soluble. In Japan they had some problems with mercury spilled in some bay that made a lot of mess because of this.

I remember, that there were a case, a few years ago, of a women who died after poisoning her self with it, during work on some NMR experiment she was doing small spill of solution containing dimethylmercury splashed her glove, after some time she got in hospital in comma and passed away after several days of doctors strugle to get her back. But this is rare example as for making mercury compond generally reduces toxicity of componds in comparison with HgCl2.

I have an intresting book which details the Minamata Disaster of Japan 1950. Its called Catastrophe and Disaster. Its reads that the first the people of the fishing village knew of a problem was when cats started going crazy, even to the point of leaping of jetites and drowning. In 1953 signs of posioning in humans started to rise rapidly. Simptoms included convulsions, lack of muscular control, slurred speech, impaired sight and birth defects such as blind babies and also deformed babies. Scientiest believe that Chiso Chemical Plant discharged Mercuary into the bay which formed methy mecruary when microorganisims broke down orgainic wastes. They believe that the cats where the first to show signs of poisioning because they would eat toxic fish, the poision would build up and because they are much smaller then humans suffer first. By mid 1970s 150 people had died and 1000 more been declaired victims.

Nasty stuff.

I just saw that Zeitgeist already stated some of things I tried to post before in much thorough way and in better written post. Considering toxicity of organic mercury compounds take in mind that some of them were in use as antiseptics/desinfectants and topical aids. Mercury as element isn't much toxic, only chronic exposure is possibly dangerous, but some of that story is overblown since dentist would died as trade many years ago, and I can't say I saw conclusive paper on mercury based dental fillings. Anyway all substances are poisonous...its only matter of concentration to achieve effect as Paracelsus stated many centuries ago. Best example known to me is the guy that took MDMA pill I think on some rave party. I side effect is that it can cause uncontrolable thirst. So naturally the guy goes and drink a LOT of water in a incredible short time span (it was between 10-20 liters). What killed him?...electrolite disbalance he caused by his stupidity = heart faliure. BTW this is OT but actually that substance he took was made in course of looking for the cure for obesity (enchanser of metabolism). It does that but strangely some people are more interested in side effects .

Leah Betts, would-be anti-drug poster corpse, died in the same way.

MDMA is actually safer than Asprin or most other drugs - millions of doses are consumed every month, yet there are only about three or four deaths a year. Yet it is still banned... Very odd, but then, anything fun is banned or restricted. The Government would ban sex if it thought it could get away with it.
Citera
2005-05-03, 23:12
  #16
Medlem
Jomazis avatar
DMM (Hg(CH3)2) är inget nervgift i klassisk bemärkelse, det är däremot en extremt effektivt administrerad tungmetall som förstör allt i sin väg, i relativt låga doser. Riktiga nervgifter blockeras enzymet acetylcholinesteras vilket leder till att acetylcholin anhopas och nervsignalerna "fastnar" och inte kan stängas av.

Parathion är ett insektsmedel som är relativt giftigt för människor, det dock bryts ner mycket snabbt i naturen och används just därför ändå. DMSO är ett mycket intressant ämne, (CH3)2SO2, mycket användbart som lösningmedel i organiska synteser med mera.

Skriv av / citera det essentiella i texterna istället för att klippa in jättestycken, blir grötigt att läsa annars.
Citera
2005-05-03, 23:36
  #17
Medlem
LASSE RASMEDVETENs avatar
Det var intressanta citat, även om vissa av påståendena där förmodligen är aningen hypade.

Har svårt att tro att DMSO skulle spela någon annan roll i sammanhanget (med paration eller liknande) än som hjälp vid hudpassage. Att organofosfater skulle bli 20-25 gånger mer potenta rent toxikologiskt som det står i ett av styckena verkar mycket osannolikt.

Annars är vissa bekämpningsmedel som Paration och Mevinfos onekligen giftiga, även om det knappast skall jämföras med VX, som dock uppvisar ganska långsam hudpenetration och måttlig flyktighet. Från början trodde man faktiskt att VX var mindre giftigt än sarin och man körde tester med höga doser på Portland. Detta står att läsa i den intressanta boken "Gassed." Där finns också utförliga symtombeskrivningar på effekterna av flertalet kemvapen.

En förutseende lönnmördare skulle knappast använda sig av tungmetaller i någon form (organiska eller oorganiska), även med beaktande av latens. Flertalet sådana ämnen har en tendens att ansamlas i specifika vävnader (före eller efter metabolisk omsättning) och bör därigenom lätt kunna detekteras. Men det förutsätter givetvis att man vet vad man letar efter.
Citera
2005-05-03, 23:49
  #18
Medlem
Jomazis avatar
Vad gör det? Förgiftningstillfället kan ju ligga flera veckor före de första symptomen visar sig, även om det är enkelt att i efterhand se vad som dödade offret så är själva förgiftningstillfället nära omöjligt att spåra. Precis som det spekuleras i RS-texten
Citera
2005-05-04, 00:02
  #19
Medlem
LASSE RASMEDVETENs avatar
Är det ett flertal personer som drabbas vid ett och samma tillfälle är det ännu mer oförsiktigt. Det första kriminalutredarna gör är att söka efter gemensamma kopplingar mellan offren och då kommer de snart fram till besöket på fotbollsmatchen som tidpunkt för förgiftningen. Några analyser av rester från platsen, lite vittnesuppgifter, och förövaren ligger förmodligen risigt till.
Citera
2005-05-04, 06:57
  #20
Bannlyst
ohh vad roligt med en nervgifttråd ^^

bra kommentarer.
Citera
2005-05-04, 08:28
  #21
Medlem
Hispers avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av spetznas
.
.
Jättemycket adekvat text
.
.
.

När man uppenbart klipper in så här mycket text från extern källa i inlägg så är det inte längre fråga om citat och då måsta källan för texten klart anges. Det har med regler för upphovsrätt att göra, regler som vi måste respektera.

Sedan kan man ha synpunkter på om det i fall som detta inte varit bättre att länka till källan istället för att klippa/klistra. Av vad jag förstått så är texten hämtad från en ej existerande site och man då inte länka. Då är ju alternativet det som gjorts här men mer generellt så kanske länkning är att föredra. I den fråga har jag kontaktat DrLove för koordination av åsikter.

Vi återkommer.

/Hisper, moderator
Citera
2005-05-07, 23:55
  #22
Medlem
LASSE RASMEDVETENs avatar
Den som bara vill blanda två vanliga produkter från handeln (istället för paration och DMSO) för att få ett hudpenetrerande gift kan ta balsaterpentin och cyanoakrylatlim. Naturligtvis är giftigheten inte jämförbar med VX, utan det rör sig om hederlig gammal cyanidförgiftning, möjligen i kombination med något som påminner om nikotinförgiftning.

Jag skriver detta då att visa hur enkelt något är ofta förtar glädjen med att kunna glänsa genom att utföra det. Förmodligen är det också anledningen till att senapsgas och sarin är så populära objekt i kemiläroböckerna.

Den som vill glänsa kombinerar förmodligen cyanoakrylat med något annat...
Citera
2005-05-08, 00:29
  #23
Bannlyst
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av LASSE RASMEDVETEN
Annars är vissa bekämpningsmedel som Paration och Mevinfos onekligen giftiga, även om det knappast skall jämföras med VX, som dock uppvisar ganska långsam hudpenetration och måttlig flyktighet. Från början trodde man faktiskt att VX var mindre giftigt än sarin och man körde tester med höga doser på Portland. Detta står att läsa i den intressanta boken "Gassed." Där finns också utförliga symtombeskrivningar på effekterna av flertalet kemvapen.
Jag läste någonstans att man hade försökt på 60-talet att kombinera VX och något "skin transfer agent" för att få VX att bli "dödligare genom upptagning genom huden". Men borde man inte kunna ta vilket gift som helts (som inte kan absorberas genom huden) och kombinera det med någont som gör att det ämmnet tas upp via huden, vida huden så går giftet direkt in i blod omloppet. Detta var bara en kass idé..
Citera
2005-05-08, 06:06
  #24
Medlem
LASSE RASMEDVETENs avatar
När jag gjorde in koll i samband med ditt ursprungsinlägg så stötte jag på ett annat forum http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about91471.html där någon påstår att CIA skulle ha experimenterat med att blanda DMSO med kobragift. Om det fungerar så borde rätt mycket kunna fungera. Dessutom skulle man kanske kunna tänka sig en sårbildande kemikalie som komplement till en icke hudpenetrerande.
Citera
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