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Erleb din jämförelse med Moskva är värdelös eftersom dessa inte lyckades lura speciellt många jämfört med den sk 'Holocaustbluffen'.
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=15043812&postcount=124
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=15043812&postcount=124
I revisionisters agenda ingår att lära sig av tidigare hoaxar i samma genre.
De flesta samtida bedömare från väst (” most Western observers who attended the trials”) lät sig luras, t ex en USA-ambassadör(se wikicitat nedan). Hans bedömning delades av andra medlemmar av den diplomatiska kåren, ”the Diplomatic Corps”; de var inte speciellt många kanske, men i gengäld väl insatta, rimligen….
Citat:
Evaluation of trials
At the time, most Western observers who attended the trials said that they were fair and that the guilt of the accused had been established. They based this assessment on the confessions of the accused, which were freely given in open court, without any apparent evidence that they had been extracted by torture or drugging. Joseph E. Davies, the U.S. ambassador, wrote in Mission to Moscow:
"In view of the character of the accused, their long terms of service, their recognized distinction in their profession, their long-continued loyalty to the Communist cause, it is scarcely credible that their brother officers...should have acquiesced in their execution, unless they were convinced that these men had been guilty of some offense.* It is generally accepted by members of the Diplomatic Corps that the accused must have been guilty of an offense which in the Soviet Union would merit the death penalty.
________________________________________
* The Bukharin trial six months later developed evidence which, if true, more than justified this action. Undoubtedly those facts were all full known to the military court at this time."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials
At the time, most Western observers who attended the trials said that they were fair and that the guilt of the accused had been established. They based this assessment on the confessions of the accused, which were freely given in open court, without any apparent evidence that they had been extracted by torture or drugging. Joseph E. Davies, the U.S. ambassador, wrote in Mission to Moscow:
"In view of the character of the accused, their long terms of service, their recognized distinction in their profession, their long-continued loyalty to the Communist cause, it is scarcely credible that their brother officers...should have acquiesced in their execution, unless they were convinced that these men had been guilty of some offense.* It is generally accepted by members of the Diplomatic Corps that the accused must have been guilty of an offense which in the Soviet Union would merit the death penalty.
________________________________________
* The Bukharin trial six months later developed evidence which, if true, more than justified this action. Undoubtedly those facts were all full known to the military court at this time."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials
Du menar förstås resten av mänskligheten, Medelsvensöner och motsvarande i alla världens länder och stater, arbetarna på verkstadsgolvet osv. Vanliga människor med sunt förnuft förstod – eller skulle förstå om de fick/tog reda på dem - tveklöst orimligheterna i Bukharins och andras bekännelser, för att inte tala om anklagelserna mot dem – i motsats till professionella hoaxsuckers som den diplomatiska kåren (se ovan)!
Opinionsläget krävde tydligen trots allt att amerikanska Trotskysympatisörer gav i uppdrag åt en kommission (Dewey- ) att se över hur processen gick till. Den fann:
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• That the conduct of the Moscow Trials was such as to convince any unprejudiced person that no attempt was made to ascertain the truth.
• That while confessions are necessarily entitled to the most serious consideration, the confessions themselves contain such inherent improbabilities as to convince the Commission that they do not represent the truth, irrespective of any means used to obtain them."
• That Trotsky never instructed any of the accused or witnesses in the Moscow trials to enter into agreements with foreign powers against the Soviet Union [and] that Trotsky never recommended, plotted, or attempted the restoration of capitalism in the USSR.
The commission concluded: "We therefore find the Moscow Trials to be frame-ups."
• That while confessions are necessarily entitled to the most serious consideration, the confessions themselves contain such inherent improbabilities as to convince the Commission that they do not represent the truth, irrespective of any means used to obtain them."
• That Trotsky never instructed any of the accused or witnesses in the Moscow trials to enter into agreements with foreign powers against the Soviet Union [and] that Trotsky never recommended, plotted, or attempted the restoration of capitalism in the USSR.
The commission concluded: "We therefore find the Moscow Trials to be frame-ups."
Revisionister anser säkert de två första punkterna vara i ännu högre grad tillämpbara på Förintelserättegångarna.
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Communist Party leaders in most Western countries echoed these views and denounced criticism of the trials as capitalist attempts to subvert Communism.
Dock inte om de var trotskister, förstås (se ovan).
Pritt var inte trotskist:
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The British lawyer and MP Denis Pritt, for example, wrote: "Once again the more faint-hearted socialists are beset with doubts and anxieties," but "once again we can feel confident that when the smoke has rolled away from the battlefield of controversy it will be realized that the charge was true, the confessions correct and the prosecution fairly conducted."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials
Jfr FritzDaCats insikt om historiens gång:
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Ett skäl till viljan att försvara den officiella historieskrivningen kan väl naturligt nog vara att man inte tror att det kan vara möjligt att lura en hel värld under en så här lång period. Finns det verkligen exempel på någon 'hoax' av denna dignitet??
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=14972371&postcount=8
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=14972371&postcount=8
Samma bedömning av historiens gång, eller hur – it will be realized etc, resp. en hoax är omöjlig under en längre period. Men totalt olika slutsats om vad man tror kan vara möjligt resp orimligt.
Här relateras ett senare uttalande av samme Pritt:
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In 1970, when I was writing my biography of Kenyatta, I had several discussions with Pritt about Kenyatta's trial, and in the course of them asked him about the Moscow trials. His reply astonished me. “I thought they were all guilty,” he said, referring to Bukharin and his co-defendants. It was as simple as that; Pritt made no attempt at political justification, but reaffirmed what was for him a matter of clear professional judgment.
[…]In terms of the Soviet Union's own judicial system, Pritt said, he firmly believed the defendants in the Moscow trials were guilty as charged. It was an argument which came oddly from the man who defended Kenyatta.
[…..]
Jeremy Murray-Brown
Cambridge, Massachusetts
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-moscow-trials-14612
[…]In terms of the Soviet Union's own judicial system, Pritt said, he firmly believed the defendants in the Moscow trials were guilty as charged. It was an argument which came oddly from the man who defended Kenyatta.
[…..]
Jeremy Murray-Brown
Cambridge, Massachusetts
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-moscow-trials-14612
Pritt har en dubbelgångare i Dr Tinnitus:
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Tror du det kan ha nåt att göra med att de flesta politiska fångar kanske sitter fängslade i diktaturer eller eller av lagar som inte är stiftade demokratiskt i en demokrati?
Vad jag vet så är de lagar som västvärlden stiftat mot förintelseförnekande, antagna på ett demokratiskt sätt i demokratiska länder.
Dr Tinnitus
http://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=9281281&postcount=27
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Ursprungligen postat av allmänmänsklig
Amnesty Press skriver om politiska fångar.
Har de någonsin skrivit om förintelserevisionister som sitter i finkan?
Amnesty Press skriver om politiska fångar.
Har de någonsin skrivit om förintelserevisionister som sitter i finkan?
Tror du det kan ha nåt att göra med att de flesta politiska fångar kanske sitter fängslade i diktaturer eller eller av lagar som inte är stiftade demokratiskt i en demokrati?
Vad jag vet så är de lagar som västvärlden stiftat mot förintelseförnekande, antagna på ett demokratiskt sätt i demokratiska länder.
Dr Tinnitus
http://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=9281281&postcount=27
Och när alla nu vet att judarna blev utrotade under andra världskriget så blir det en demokratisk naturlighet att vilja förvara den officiella historieskrivningen i den frågan via lagstiftning.
FritzDaCat igen:
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Ett skäl till viljan att försvara den officiella historieskrivningen kan väl naturligt nog vara att man inte tror att det kan vara möjligt att lura en hel värld under en så här lång period. Finns det verkligen exempel på någon 'hoax' av denna dignitet??
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=14972371&postcount=8
https://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=14972371&postcount=8
Ty risken finns att en hel värld kan luras av oliktänkande att tro att judarna finns kvar.
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Jag anser endast att oliktänkade inte ska behandlas annorlunda än andra i samhället, och bryter de mot demokratiskt stiftade lagar så ska de straffas likväl som om alla andra. Är det nåt du tycker är fel?
http://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=9401690&postcount=75
http://www.flashback.org/showpost.php?p=9401690&postcount=75
Jfr Pritt ovan:
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In terms of the Soviet Union's own judicial system, Pritt said, he firmly believed the defendants in the Moscow trials were guilty as charged.
Så var det i Sovjetunionen, så är det i alla länder där historieskrivningen lagstadgas.
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Is not the best comment on these matters the one made by A.T. Cholerton, then Moscow correspondent of the London Daily Telegraph, which Malcolm Muggeridge is fond of quoting? Asked whether the accusations against the Old Bolsheviks standing trial were true, Cholerton replied: Yes, everything was true, except the facts.
Yepp, så är det: allt blir sant i skådeprocesser, utom fakta….
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Senast redigerad av Erleb 2009-02-10 kl. 13:28.
Senast redigerad av Erleb 2009-02-10 kl. 13:28.


