Makedoner! [Sammanfogad tråd /Mod]

"Det enda vi kan göra är att styrka våra påståenden med länkar. Något som du Pelagonia har misslyckats med."

Du (kristna turken) har knappt länkat något överhuvudtaget och knappast från neutrala källor förutom grekiska (kristna turkiska) synfältets väg = påhittade sättet att tänka.

NI HAR VERKLIGEN BEVISAT ATT ANTIK MAKEDONIERNA INTE VAR GREKER.
VÄRLDENS STÖRSTA DRÖMMARE MED FALSKA PÅSTÅENDEN ÄVEN LÄNKAR TILL MASSA GREKISKA PROPAGANDA SIDOR.
VERKLIGHETEN GÖR ONT DÄRFÖR MÅSTE MAN SÖKA SIG TILL NÅGRA BEVIS SOM PASSAR GREKERNA. ALLT SOM TALAR EMOT ÄR BARA OINTRESSANT FÖR DRÖMMARNA.

The Macedonian Lion, like the Macedonian Sun is yet another oldest European symbol that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians. Lions used to dwell around Macedonia and the ancient historians have recorded this. The lion hunt was popular among the Macedonians and lion hunt scenes have found their place in the Macedonian art.

On August 2, 338 BC, the Macedonians defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in central Greece and conquered their country. On the battlefiled they erected an impressive sculpture of a proud-standing lion. The same lion sculpture is also found in the Macedonian city of Amphipolis.

The Lion continued to be a Macedonian symbol even after the destruction of the Macedonian Empire and Kingdom in 168 BC.

För det första handlar det inte enbart om alexander den store ursprung.alaxanders familj hävdade vara från argos till ursprung dvs icke makedoner till grunden då argos låg aldrig i ancient makedonien.(emigranter med andra ord.) att alexandeer skulle då vara grek innebär inte att generellt folken skulle vara det. ofta brukar kungafamiljen vara av mixade påbrå.

Jag är nyfiken varför man delade upp alexanders armen under sin campain dvs hellener med makedoner ,thraker och illyrier jag hade förstått om man skillde tex athenare med spartaner och makedoner.men det verkar som hellener var för sig själv dvs hade 7500 soldater medans makedoner för sig själv med ca 35000 soldater. ? om makedoner var ett grekisk folk borde man inte då skilja hellener(inklusive makedoner) enbart med thraker och illyrier`?

During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language, as the native language language of Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9, 37 ). Similarly, Plutarch points out that Alexander spoke to his fellow countrymen in Macedonian: "he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).





http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ale....plutarch.html

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ale...the.great.html




Ligger det något i detta då?`

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/macedonian.html


Traditionally Macedonia was divided into Upper (mountainous) and Lower (plain) country. Through these regions, which were inhabited since the New Stone Age, a lot of ways of tribal migrations were going, and that is why its ethnic composition appeared very mixed: the researchers find there Greek, Illyrian and Thracian elements. Some consider Macedonians to be even of Pelasgian, non-Indo-European origin. Hellenes believed Macedonians a sort of semi-barbarians, i.e. the nation which did not manage to rise to the Greek level of culture, but were nevertheless closer to it than any other peoples around Greece.

Phonetics Some important traits make Macedonian different from Greek in phonetics. The intervocal s was preserved here, while disappearing in Greek. Voiced aspirated consonants did not become voiceless but were preserved (Greek thanos vs. Macedonian danos 'death').


Morphology The nominal system is known only due to several glosses with fixed endings of nominative singular and plural. Obviously Indo-European o- and á-stems were quite productive in Macedonian.
Lexicon Of all discovered Macedonian words, some do not have cognates in Greek but do have them in other Indo-European languages such as Thracian, Slavic, and Italic.


Close Contacts The language is very hard to define whether it belongs to Thraco-Illyrian or to Hellenic groups of Indo-European languages. Some linguists believe that tribes of mountainous Macedonia spoke an archaic language closer to Thracian or Illyrian, but people in towns and the upper classes, influenced by Greek achievements, gradually were losing their native tongue and took up Greek. Contacts with Greek Halkidiki and Thessalia regions were strengthening in the 5th and 4th centuries, and simultaneously the process of national assimilation went on. When Greece was conquered by Philip of Macedonia and occupied by his son Alexander the Great, Macedonians officially became real Hellenes.


jag är också förvånad varför en sådan proffesor från oxford skriver detta.

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/Rawlinson.html

According to the tradition generally accepted by the Greeks, the Macedonian kingdom, which under Philip and Alexander attained to such extraordinary greatness, was founded by Hellenic emigrants from Argos. The Macedonians themselves were not Hellenes; they belonged to the barbaric races, not greatly differing from the Greeks in ethnic type, but far behind them in civilization, which bordered Hellas upon the north. They were a distinct race, not Paeonian, not Illyrian, not Thracian; but, of the three, their connection was closest with the Illyrians

skumt.

kan det också vara logiskt att makedoner var egen folk fast besläktat med greker dvs som serber ochj kroater inte samma folk dock samma ursprung?

In the course of the Middle Ages and in later periods the name of Macedonia can be found both in heraldry and itinerary literature. Macedonia is mentioned for the first time in the 1595 Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, where the coat of arms of Macedonia is included among those of eleven other countries. As noted in detail by Aleksandar Matkovski, under the coat of arms is written "Macedonia", while above the arms in Cyrillic script is "Cimeri makedonske zemle" (the Coat of Arms of the Macedonian country). In the Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, Macedonian arms are presented along with those of Croatia, Dalmatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, the Duchagyni, and Kastrioti; in the 152 coats of arms depicted, the Macedonian coat of arms with the inscription "Macedonia" is included twice. The same rolls of arms includes the arms of King Dushan or of his son Urosh. This is a complex coat of arms, presenting these kings as symbols of the unity of the South Slavs and including the arms of nine Balkan regions: Macedonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the coastal countries, Slavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia. Note that Macedonia is presented as a separate region.

In 1605, an extensive rolls of arms was published in Hungary. Siebmacher, its author, included the coat of arms-an single-headed eagle on a white background-of "Macedoniani", a Macedonian family from southern Hungary. Since the 15th century there had been a group of Macedonian immigrants in Baranya, inhabiting a village called Macedonia. The family Macedoniani originated from this village, where Dancho of Macedonia came from as well. Dancho is mentioned as early as 1439 as a rich noblemen; his descendants Ladislav of Macedonia, Bishop of Veliki Varazhdin in 1533, and Volk of Macedonia, ban (governor) of Szörèny, are also noted.
One of the oldest preserved rolls of arms is that of Palinich, most likely prepared in the late 16th and early 17th century. The arms of Macedonia are included, with the hand-written Latin inscription "Macedonia regni" below it. The term Macedonia is also found in Althan's 1614 rolls of arms. Above the beautifully drawn Macedonian coat of arms is the Cyrillic inscription "Makedonske zemle cimeri" and below that, in Latin, "Insignia regni Macedonia". Among the most beautifully drawn Macedonian coats of arms is the one kept in the Museum of Applied Arts in Belgrade. This coat of arms, with the inscription "Macedoniae" belongs to the heraldry of King Dushan, along with arms of Illyria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Sklavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia.

The Ohmuchevich family was known for its efforts to prove inheritance right over Bosnia and Macedonia. Over decades, the family tendered many claims to the territory, endeavoring to prove the rights of the Ohmuchevichs to large regions in the Balkans. They even printed coats of arms, wishing to prove their noble descent and their right to rule these large regions, Macedonia always taking the central place among them. Their enormous wealth made it possible for them to print heraldic collections and other books-which, regardless of the strength or validity of their claims to the territories-made the term "Macedonia" popular both in a geographical and an ethnic sense. The 1636 role of arms authored by Admiral Andriya Ohmuchevich and Marko Skoroevich argued that Macedonia and Bosnia could be liberated from Turkish rule only with the help of Vienna and the Hapsburgs. The Rolls of Arms of Marko Skoroevich was dedicated to Prince Ferdinand; though the young prince did not yet know to read, he could look at the "pictures" and by the help of the coats of arms grow familiar with the geographical terms and toponyms. The Macedonian coat of arms in this collection is included in a group of heraldries belonging to the South Slavic states, with the inscription "Insignia regni Macedonia" above it. On this coat of arms the lion is depicted standing rampant, yellow on a red background.

The term Macedonia is also written below the Macedonian arms in the 1675 Foynitsa rolls of arms, as well as in Du Cange's 1680 History of Byzantium, published in Paris. Macedonian coat of arms containing the inscription "Macedonia" can also be found in the 1689 Olovo rolls of arms in Bologna. The Berlin rolls of arms from the late 1wth century also includes the term Macedonia written in Latin below the coat of arms. and "Cimeri makedonske zemle" above.

In short, there are many records dating from the 17th century in which the term Macedonia is mentioned. It is also included in the handwritten 1694 stemmatographia of Pavle Riter Vitezovich: "Macedonia" is printed in Latin above the coat of arms. In the printed 1701 stemmatographia of Pavle Vitezovich, the inscription "Macedonia" is placed above the Macedonian coat of arms, while below there are four verses in Latin which tell that, in former times, the golden shields were symbols of imperial dignity, now replaced by a Turkish turbanned fez.
Hristofor Zhefarovich, the most prominent Balkan artist of the 18th century, was Macedonian-born, most likely in Doyran. He was educated in Greek schools, but he acquired his artistic knowledge in Thessaloniki and Ohrid. His Stemmatographia includes two rolls, one containing 56 coats of arms from all the Slavs and a second set of 20 containing South Slavic coats of arms. The Macedonian coat of arms is presented in both compositions with the inscription "Makedonia".

The term "Macedonia" is also written below the Macedonian coat of arms in the 1746 rolls of arms of Ivo Saraka and in the third volume of Jovan Raich's rolls of arms, printed in 1794. Each coat of arms is labeled: the Macedonian as "Macedoniae", the Serbian as "Serbia", the Bulgarian as "Bulgaria" and the Bosnian as "Bosna". The terms Macedonia and Macedonians were also recorded by travelers passing over its roads while travelling from East to West and vice versa, or while wandering over its territory. Historical misconceptions certainly had their effects on these travel accounts; the writers often named the Macedonians as Bulgarians, Serbs or Greeks.

But in many itineraries the terms Macedonia and Macedonians remained clearly distinguished from those for other Balkan states and other Balkan peoples. Thus, when the Venetian captain Angiolello passed through Macedonia and on August 13, 1470 recorded his stay on the Holy Mountain, he wrote that "there are many Christian monks, some of whom are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs, and there are even Italians and people from other nations." Four days later, while camping by the mouth of the Mesta River, he noted that "there live Greeks and Macedonians."

An unknown author describes the Ohrid countryside, writing "Albania is the region which had been called Macedonia by the ancient peoples, i.e. it is a part of Macedonia, as Macedonia covers many countries and regions."
In the 15th century, Bertrando de la Brokier traveled through the Balkans and left behind an account of his travels. Among other things, he writes "...and I remembered the heavy oppression of the Turk over the emperor in Constantinople and over all Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians, and even over the Despot of Rascia [Rashka, as he referred to Gjuragj Brankovich] and all his subjects, which is very unfortunate for the all of Christianity.... And there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esklavonians, Rascians and Serbians...".

In 1461, some time after Brokier's travels through the Balkans, the Venician commissioner to Rome, Paulus Maurocenus, made plans to drive the Turks out of the Balkans: "...When the enemy forces are crushed, no one will ever doubt that all of Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Athens, and Peloponnesus...".

In his 1547 itinerary of southern Macedonia, Pierre Bellon discourses on the Holy Mountain, the mines in Siderokapsa and Kavalla, and frequently refers to the region as Macedonia.

In his writings of 1573, the French traveler Philip du Fresne-Canais notes: "I saw a large plain at the beginning of which Skopje is located, hidden by small hills, a very big town which, according to some, is in Bulgaria, but according to my opinion is in Macedonia...".
In 1566 Yakov of Macedonia, a printer and a writer, left for Venice. There he printed a number of liturgical texts and other writings in the printing house of the Montenegrin voivoda (commander) Bozhidar Vukovich. In the preface to one of the liturgies he writes : "...I took great effort in making this work and in making holy books, for a long time and for many years... I came out from Macedonia, my homeland, and entered the Western countries...".
The printing of geographical maps stimulated the wider use of the term Macedonia. Many centuries passed from the first maps of Ptolemy, in which Ancient Macedonia is presented, to Peutinger's table, a maritime map depicting the coastline along the Aegean coast drafted by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Pyrireis, to the map of the Macedonians in St. Petersburg. One of the more realistic geographical maps of Macedonia is Gastaldi's 1560 map published in Venice. It is there that certain Macedonian place names are adopted for the first time by the West: the Vardar River, Skopje, Mt. Skopska Crna Gora, Tikvesh Valley, Demir Kapiya, Bitola, Kratovo, Struga, Ohrid and Ohrid Lake, Prespa and Prespa Lake, Prilep, Kostur, Lerin, Voden and Resen.
The Mercator map (Duisburg, 1589) and Laurenberg map (Amsterdam, 1647) followed Gastaldi's lead in giving some inhabited sites both their ancient and their contemporary Macedonian names, such as Lychnidos/Ohrid and Edessa/Voden. In Rome, G. Cantelli da Vigniola published a 1689 map which shows-with slight deviations-the territory of Macedonia and its geographical borders. Though map contains many errors, it for the first time marks the towns of Tetovo, Kumanovo, Katlanovo, Veles, Debar, Kavalla, Ber and Enije Vardar. Only seven years later, in Paris, N. Senson detailed Macedonia in a number of 1696 maps. These were followed by the maps of G. de L'Isle (Paris, 1707), Homann (1717), Harenberg (Nuernberg, 1741), S. Jenvier (Paris, 1750), A. Lapie (Paris, 1843), the Map of European Turkey (Belgrade, 1853), the commercial map of the province of Macedonia (Paris, 1885), and a "Map of Macedonia" by Dimitrija Chupovski (St. Petersburg, 1913) in which Macedonia is shown in its geographical and ethnic borders. On all these maps Macedonia is clearly labeled as Macedonia.

http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displa...=58&fullsize=1
http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displa...=59&fullsize=1

Det är så jag ser det. De flesta folk är ändå mixade så många makedoner kan ha haft ursprung söderifrån, andra kan ha haft från andra områden osv.

Det är också en fråga vad man menar med etnicitet hos antika folk, eftersom deras syn på etnicitet är annorlunda än våran.

Ditt spel är slut Pelagonia. Petrooos83 förödmjukade dig när han mycket riktigt påstod att Gendeto egentligen heter Josif Grezlovski och är en fyromanisk revisionist. Alla skrattar åt dina länkar och du erkänner själv att du inte orkar läsa mina. Du länkar dessutom källor som bestrider din egna uppfattning. Du har verkligen bevisat dig nu, och vad du än skriver hädanefter så spelar det ingen roll för INGEN kommer ta dig på allvar.

The Macedonian Sun is undoubtedly the oldest symbol in the world that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians. This 8-rayed and 16-rayed Macedonian Sun had been cherished by the Macedonians for over 3,000 years.

It appears on the coins, military equipment, and art of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, and continued to be National Insignia of the Macedonians throughout history to modern times. The Macedonian sun is found in the icons and frescoes in the churches throughout the whole territory of divided Macedonia, and speaks of volumes of tradition as the Macedonian nation had cherished it for centuries.

Ditt spel är slut Pelagonia. Petrooos83 förödmjukade dig när han mycket riktigt påstod att Gendeto egentligen heter Josif Grezlovski och är en fyromanisk revisionist. Alla skrattar åt dina länkar och du erkänner själv att du inte orkar läsa mina. Du länkar dessutom källor som bestrider din egna uppfattning. Du har verkligen bevisat dig nu, och vad du än skriver hädanefter så spelar det ingen roll för INGEN kommer ta dig på allvar.

Ditt spel är ute för länge sedan din falske grek. Du vägrar läsa bevisen överhuvudtaget, du är efterbliven och förnekare i högsta grad.

VAD SPELAR DET FÖR ROLL VEM SOM SKREV BOKEN DIN FALSKE GREK?
VAD INNEHÅLLER BOKEN? SKRIV NÄR DU VET VAD SOM ÄR RELEVANT ISTÄLLET DIN EFTERBLIVNE SPAMMARE.

Differences Between Ancient Macedonians and Ancient Greeks
by J.S. Gandeto

Här är svaret:

Notes Preface

1. Politis (1993: 40-42) cites fourteen examples from the Greek literature of the 1794-1841 period in which the ancient Macedonians are not considered to be part of the ancient Greek world. Karagatsis said that 'it was an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks'.

2. Useful and quite persuasive reading one can find in Ferdinand Schevill's book A History of the Balkans-From the Earliest Times to the Present Day. Published by Dorset Press 1991. We shall bring forward one particular passage that succinctly depicts the Macedonian position before the Balkan wars.

“Thus, before the close of the nineteenth century, Macedonia was the scene of a triangular struggle conducted chicfly with the tools of church and schools for the conquest of the mind of the inhabitants; and if by that time the bulk of the Vardar Slavs had gone over to the Bulgar camp, the Serbs had at least managed to gain a foothold to the north of the Shar Dagh mountain, while the Greeks solidly maintained their traditional grip on the southern district contiguous to Thessaly" (p.433-4).

3. Larry Rimer reviews the ongoing conflict between Republic of Macedonia and Greece from a judicial point of view. The article gives an excellent in-depth presentation of difficulties associated with adjudicating international cultural rights vis-a-vis peoples' or human rights issues. European courts may eventually arbitrate the issue that has antagonized the members of the European Union itself.

4. (The 'Greek position' regarding the so-called "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians). The politics of the modern era in the services of national historiography are combined with the reality of today's ever increasing demand for profit. The reader can gain an insight of the intricate interplay between politics, history, and modern-day nationalism. In Peter Green's chapter X, "The Macedonian Connection" in Classical Bearings-Interpreting Ancient History and Culture, one will find the scenes that usually develop behind the curtains, brought up to the forefront. The book was published by University of California Press, Ltd. First Paperback Printing 1998. Please see my commentaries in chapter 17.

5. See Salonica Terminus by Fred A. Reed, published 1996; Victor Roudometof's The Macedonian Question Colombia University Press, 2000. The most chauvinistic account can be found in Martis' Falsification of Macedonian History, and AP Daskalakis The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians 1965.

6. Personal names. The author listed below has a list of Macedonian names found on inscriptions. J. Gabbert (Wright State University) "The Language of Citizenship in Antigonid Macedonia" The Ancient History Bulletin 2.1 (1988) 10-11.

[If we were to assume that some of the Macedonian names have Greek meanings and thereby must be considered Greek names, then, we must look elsewhere for comparable evidence in order to make a conclusive decision about it. Since Philip and Alexander have Greek etymology, we are willing to "give them" to the Greeks, after all "Philipos" lover of horses, and "Alexander" the protector of men, have Greek meanings. But, then again, we ask: what about the Persian names? Greeks have Greek etymology for all Persian names that we find in the literature. For example: Darius, the Persian king, means "worker" (erxies) Xerxes, another Persian king, means "warrior" (areios), Habrocomes, which means soft in Greek (habro) Harmarnithres, which means "chariot" in Greek (harma) Harpagus, which means "plunderer" in Greek (harpage) and so on.] Detailed elaboration on names and language one can find in Thomas Harrison's "Herodotus' Conception of Foreign Languages" HYSTOS vol 2, 1998.

Macedonians did not worship the same Gods as the Greeks either. The fact that many Gods were found worshiped by both peoples can be attributed to the Greek desire to find Greek equivalent God with other people's deities. Pan, Poseidon, Asiris, Hera, Hestia, Themis, Dioscuri have no Greek origin and are not "Greek" Gods, but they all have a Greek equivalent. Besides, aren't all Greek Gods in fact Egyptian Gods? Didn't Herodotus state that? (Hdt.2. 50 (schedon de kai panton ta aunomata to theon ex Aiguptou eleluthe es ten Hellada). See also Hoddinott, The Thracians, 169-70.

7. An excellent work by Anastasia Karakasidou Fields of Wheat fields of Blood illuminates the deep-seated Greek distrust in people of 'Slavic' origin in Aegean Macedonia. It is quite interesting to note that Cambridge University Press reneged on publishing this work under the threat of Greek reaction/violence. The author's life was also threatened and many of the Greek intellectuals obediently lined in support behind the government's position. Please read also The Macedonians of Greece-Denying Ethnic Identity Published by Human Rights Watch 1999. Persuasive elaboration of Macedonian and Greek discourse can be obtained from the journal of Modern Greek Studies 14.2 (1996) 253-30 1, l John Hopkins University Press] in Victor Roudometof's article "Nationalism and Identity Politics in the Balkans: Greece and Macedonian Question"

8. In his book The Hellenism of the Ancient Macedonians Daskalakis covers all the pertinent "areas of sameness" currently in dispute between ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks like names, religion, language, origin and mythology (the 'Greek' position), but fails to even acknowledge the material culture of the ancient Macedonians. The material culture of the ancient Macedonians, in our opinion, represents the crux of the "otherness" that clearly separates these two ancient peoples. The so-called "Greek" position it seems, is held only by modern Greeks, writes Eugene Borza (1990: 91 n. 27), citing George Cawkwell's Philip of Macedon reference on p. 22.

Shit, du är bara för mycket... Din reaktion när du blir motbevisad ger ett tydligt erkännande att du är ute och cyklar.. Hur fan orkar du??? Så fort man slår tillbaka mot dig så flippar du och börjar kalla oss falska greker osv.
Mår du inte bra kanske??

Ja men tydligen enligt dig så har det stor betydelse vem skriver vad osv. Så varför säger du emot dig själv???