Vinnaren i pepparkakshustävlingen!
2006-08-02, 18:29
  #373
Medlem
Drullknulls avatar
Jag låter Carson förklara skillnaderna mellan Marx, Proudhon och de amerikanska individualanarkisterna:

The question remains: if labor is the source of normal exchange-value for reproducible goods, and the natural wage of labor in a free market is its full product, what is the explanation for profit in "actually existing capitalism"?
A central point of contention between Marx and the utopians was the extent to which the labor theory of value was a description of existing commodity exchange, or a prescription for rules of exchange in a reformed system. Marx criticized the utopians for erecting the law of value into a normative standard for a utopian society, rather than a law descriptive of existing capitalism. For him, the law of value described the process of exchange under capitalism as it was; the law of value was fully compatible with the existence of exploitation. His generalizations about exploitation assumed that commodities were exchanged according to their labor value; far from making profits impossible, exchange according to the law of value was presupposed as the foundation for surplus-value. Profit resulted from the difference in value between labor-power, as a commodity, and the labor-product; this was true even (or rather, especially) when all commodities exchanged at their value.
Some "utopians" (including Proudhon, the Owenites, and some Ricardian socialists), it is true, saw the labor theory as a call for a mandated set of rules (like Labor Notes, or modern proposals for government backing of a LETS system). For these, the law of value ruled out exploitation; but rather than seeing it as an automatically operating law of the market, they saw it as requiring the imposition of egalitarian "rules of the game."
But besides these two opposing theories, there was a possible third alternative that differed significantly from the first two. This third alternative considered all exploitation to be based on force; and the exploitative features of existing society to result from the intrusion of the element of coercion. Unlike utopianism, the third theory treated the law of value as something that operated automatically when not subject to interference. Unlike Marxism, it believed the unfettered operation of the law of value to be incompatible with exploitation. This school included, especially, the market-oriented Ricardian socialist Thomas Hodgskin, and the later individualist anarchists in America; they saw capitalism as exploitative to the extent that unequal exchange prevailed, under the influence of the State. Without such intervention, the normal operation of the law of value would automatically result in labor receiving its full product. For them, exploitation was not the natural outcome of a free market; the difference between the value of labor power as a commodity and the value of labor's product resulted, not from the existence of wage labor itself, but from state-imposed unequal exchange in the labor market. For them, the law of value was both the automatic mechanism by which a truly free market operated, and at the same time incompatible with exploitation.
It followed that the law of value was not something to be surpassed. Unlike the Marxists, who looked forward to an economy of abundance based on a principle of "from each according to his ability, etc.," the individualists and market Ricardians saw the link between effort and reward as fundamental to distributive justice. The defining feature of exploitation was the benefit of one party at the expense of another's labor. As Benjamin Tucker wrote in "Should Labor Be Paid or Not?"

[Johann] Most being a Communist, he must, to be consistent, object to the purchase or sale of anything whatever; but why he should particularly object to the purchase and sale of labor is more than I can understand. Really, in the last analysis, labor is the only thing that has any title to be bought or sold. Is there any just basis of price except cost? And is there anything that costs except labor or suffering (another name for labor)? Labor should be paid! Horrible, isn't it? Why, I thought the fact that is not paid was the whole grievance. "Unpaid labor" has been the chief complaint of all Socialists, and that labor should get its reward has been their chief contention. Suppose I had said to Kropotkin that the real question is whether Communism will permit individuals to exchange their labor or products on their own terms. Would then Most have been as shocked? ....Yet in another form I said precisely that.1


Studies in mutualist politcal economy, Part Two--Capitalism and the State: Past, Present and Future

http://www.mutualist.org/id47.html
Citera
2006-08-02, 22:32
  #374
Medlem
Stalins avatar
Så vad vill du ha sagt? Det tjänar väl inget till att kritisera, du kommer bara svara att du inte har köpt ett "absolut paket" och vägra bemöta ändå.

Citat:
Most being a Communist, he must, to be consistent, object to the purchase or sale of anything whatever; but why he should particularly object to the purchase and sale of labor is more than I can understand.


Han har inte förstått, nej. Av någon anledning verkar han stolt över det.
Citera
2006-08-03, 01:23
  #375
Medlem
Gustavkukens avatar
Förövrigt

Denna diskussion är ett praktiskt exempel på hur en inomsocialistisk diskussion kan te sig, alltså går det att diskutera med enbart socialistiska partners utan att det enbart myllrar ut i ryggdunkningar, som (bl a) du anklagade socialism.nu för.
Citera
2006-08-03, 09:31
  #376
Medlem
Drullknulls avatar
VCM är proudhonianskt samarbetsorgan i flera länder:

http://www.geocities.com/voluntary_c...ent/start.html

Carson deltar i VCM trots att han förespråkar en "skarpare" marknad, det ena utesluter inte det andra. Vill folk leva kollektivt med alternativa ekonomiska system, så hindrar jag dem inte, varje människa får välja.
Citera
2006-08-03, 15:23
  #377
Medlem
Stalins avatar
Citat:
When someone realizes that it is immoral to exploit another person, and immoral to oppress another person, and when they refuse to do so, that person has become an anarchist, as far as I am concerned.

Tattarsekt.
Men visst får de göra vad de vill, folk kan gå med i Hare Krishna om de känner för det.
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