Vinnaren i pepparkakshustävlingen!
  • 1
  • 2
2005-03-02, 17:44
  #1
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
På begäran av Jan Svensson, som gärna vill reda ut begreppen när det gäller samarbetet mellan nazister och zionister under WWII, samt dessa två ideologiers likhet, så startar jag denna nya tråd. Väl mött till en LUGN, SANSAD och AVSPÄND diskussion.

Jag inleder med att kopiera lite av de poster jag skrivit i den låsta tråden "Förintelsen - vi erkänner vi ljugit" där den egentliga debatten om detta känsliga ämne startade:
Citat:
Nazis and Jews

"---At the 1958 World Jewish Conference in Geneva, Dr. Nahum Goldman, President of the World Zionist Organization, warned Jews that "a current decline of overt anti-Semitism might constitute a new danger to Jewish survival... The disappearance of anti-Semitism has had a very negative effect on our internal life.

Goldman was not the first Jew to recognize the common ground between Zionists and anti-Semites. In fact, ever since Zionism was invented by a Jewish journalist in the late nineteenth century, Zionist-inclined Jewish leaders have actually cooperated with anti-Semites, including Hitler's Nazis, in the prevention of Jewish assimilation.

The founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, himself entered into negotiations with the anti-Semitic Tsarist Minister of the Interior Plehve, who promised the Tsarist Government's "moral and material assistance" to the Zionist movement.

There is even a certain amount of evidence to show that Hitler was financed by Jewish interests. In his book, I Paid Hitler, Thyssen admitted that the Nazis themselves had been obliged to recognize the services rendered by the Jewish Simon Hirschland Bank in Essen, which had arranged Wall Street loans for Hitler through another Jewish bank in New York, Goldman Sachs & Co. For a long time no-one dared lay hands on the Simon Hirschland Bank, despite pressure from the extremist element of the Nazi Party.

Even well into the war, in 1944, Eichmann still liaised with his Zionist friends. He made a deal with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a leader of the Budapest Jewish community, that several thousand prominent Zionists would be allowed to emigrate to Palestine in return for Kastner keeping order amongst those who were being shipped to concentration camps.---"
http://www.rense.com/general40/zionn.htm
Citat:
"---Before the war, the Zionist leaders proclaimed a massive international boycott against the German government. This aggressive policy poured fuel upon an already inflammatory situation, and consequently it helped start the Holocaust.
´
"While the mass genocide of European Jewry took place, several plans were arranged to rescue as many Jews as possible. Rabbi Michael Ber Wisemandel and Joel Brand, among numerous others, arranged with silent approval from Hitler and German SS leaders, plans for the evacuation of hundreds of thousands of Jews, especially Hungarian, from Nazi persecution. Every single plan was undermined and destroyed by the Zionist leaders and the Jewish Agency.

'Rak B'Dam Thieye Lanuh Ha'Aretz' was the policy of the Zionist movement. In English: 'Only With Jewish Blood Can We Claim For, And Be Given A Land'.

In late 1944 Himmler established contacts with Jewish leaders for the evacuation of Jews out of Nazi areas of control.
These contacts were rebuffed at the instigation of the Zionists, as the Satmar Jewish commentator points out. The Zionists required the greatest number of Jewish deaths in areas of Third Reich control, in order to teach a summary lesson about the need for the creation of a secular (basically atheist) "Jewish state" in Palestine. The resulting misnamed "state of Israel" was secretly funded by our "glorious Ally--'Uncle Joe" Stalin (through a Czech pipeline) and Stalin provided key support for United Nations recognition of the Israeli entity.

It was a Zionist partnership with the Nazis and the Communists that lead to the creation of the Israeli state.

Rabbi Stephen Wise, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are the real founders of the state of Israel.---"

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/satmar1.html

Henry Makow om sambandet mellan zionism och nazism:
Citat:
"---Zionists, on the other hand, welcomed the Nazis' anti Semitic policies. Like the Nazis, they believed in race-based national character and destiny. Like the Nazis, they believed Jews had no future in Germany.
The Zionists did not protest Nazi persecution such as the removal of 2000 Jewish scholars and scientists from German universities in 1933. The Nazis rewarded this "restraint" by allowing the Zionists to go about their work unhindered. All other Jewish and anti fascist organizations were disbanded and their leaders imprisoned.

The Nazis required all Jews to join the Zionist-led "Reich Union" whose goal was emigration. Jews were to be converted to Zionism at any cost. The Zionists were able to publish books and newspapers critical of the Nazis so long as the audience was restricted to Jews.

The cooperation extended to political and economic spheres. Adolph Eichmann set up agricultural training camps in Austria to prepare young Jews for Kibbutz life. He visited Palestine and conferred with Zionist leaders who confessed their true expansionist goals. There was even talk of a strategic alliance between Nazi Germany and Jewish Palestine. His report is in Himmler's Archives.---"
http://www.savethemales.ca/000482.html
Citera
2005-03-02, 18:31
  #2
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
En annan sak att tänka på när man diskuterar Hitler och hur han kunde komma till makten är; Vem finansierade honom och nationalsocialismens intressen? Ingen kommer till makten utan ekonomisk uppbackning, ju mer pengar desto större chans att vinna, se bara på USA:

Henry Makow har bl a. följande att säga i frågan:

About Hitler and his financial supporters: Hitler didn´t want World War
Citat:
"---The book "Financial Origins of National Socialism" (1933) by "Sydney Warburg" provides another glimpse of how the Illuminist clique supported Hitler. This 70-page booklet was suppressed for many years but was republished in 1983 as "Hitler's Secret Backers."

"Warburg" describes a July 1929 meeting with "Carter," the President of J.P. Morgan's Guarantee Trust, the Presidents of the Federal Reserve Banks, "the young Rockefeller" and "Glean from Royal Dutch." These are all Rothschild dominated.

It was determined that Warburg who spoke German should travel to Germany and ask Hitler how much money he needed to overthrow the state. The only stipulation was that Hitler adopts "an aggressive foreign policy.---"
http://www.savethemales.ca/000369.html

Lenni Brenner är en mycket intressant skrivande jude som det säkert finns skäl att återkomma till i denna tråd:

Book by Lenni Brenner; 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
Citat:
"---Jews and other Americans still know little of Zionism's sordid past. But today only programed fanatics can come away pro-Zionist after reading plain facts. Indeed, according to a 1995 American Jewish Committee survey, less than 22% of all Jews declare themselves Zionist.---"
http://www.realnews247.com/51_docume..._the_nazis.htm

Många är dom judar som starkt reagerat på symbiosen mellan zionismen och nazismen:

'Jews against zionism':
Citat:
"---IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.

Zionist responsibility for the Holocaust is threefold.
1.The Holocaust was a punishment for disrespecting The Three Oaths (see Talmud, Tractate Kesubos p. 111a).
2.Zionist leaders openly withheld support, both financially and otherwise, to save their fellow brothers and sisters from a cruel death.
3.The leaders of the Zionist movement cooperated with Hitler and his cohorts on many occasions and in many ways.---"

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/an...liebermann.cfm
Citera
2005-03-02, 19:58
  #3
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
Den här siten kanske inte passar Jan som hand i handske men alla tillgängliga källor är nödvändiga för att få en något så när klar bild av trådens ämne och för övrigt beskriver dom symbiosen på samma sätt som dom andra jag citerat:

American Defense League:
Citat:
"---Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letter for its name, "Tel Aviv", while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party (Nazi) member. Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity". Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide ranging collaboration between Zionism and Hitler's Third Reich.

In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi - Etzel) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.---"
http://www.adlusa.com/adl//zionhol1.htm

Här finns en scannad kopia av Stern-ligans förfrågan om en allians med nazisterna:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story799.html

Slutligen några rader från ytterligare en nyanserad judisk författare och analytiker, Israel Shahak som det antagligen också finns anledning att återkomma till, citerad från sin bok; Jewish History, Jewish Religion.
Citat:
"---Zionist leaders in Germany welcomed Hitler's rise to power, because they shared his belief in the primacy of "race" and his hostility to the assimilation of Jews among "Aryans". They congratulated Hitler on his triumph over the common enemy - the forces of liberalism.---"
Åsikter om denna symbios? Själv trodde jag inte mina ögon när jag råkade på detta första gången men så småningom, efter att ha studerat zionismen under 1900-talet insåg jag att det fanns logik bakom samarbetet.
Citera
2005-03-03, 20:33
  #4
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
I väntan på att Jan Svensson (och andra ) och hans intresse för zionismens samarbete med nazismen ska vakna, redovisar jag ytterligare belägg för ett samarbete mellan dessa tvenne nationalsocialistiska rörelser. Ur förordet till Lenni Brenners' bok Zionism in the age of dictators citerar jag följande:

http://vho.org/aaargh/engl/zad/zad0.html

Citat:
"---Why another book on the Second World War, which is probably the most written about subject in human history? Why another book on the Holocaust, which has been movingly described by many survivors and scholars? As a general subject, the age of the dictators, the world war, and the Holocaust have indeed been covered - but has the interaction between Zionism and Fascism and Nazism been adequately explored? And if not, why not?

The answer is quite simple. Different aspects of the general subject have been dealt with, but there is no equivalent of the present work, one that attempts to present an overview of the movement's world activities during that epoch. Of course, that is not an accident, but rather a sign that there is much that is politically embarrassing to be found in that record.

Dealing with the issues brings difficult problems, one of the most difficult arising out of the emotions evoked by the Holocaust. Can there by any doubt that many of the United Nations delegates who voted for the creation of an Israeli state, in 1947, were motivated by a desire to somehow compensate the surviving Jews for the Holocaust? They, and many of Israel's other well-wishers, cathected the state with the powerful human feelings they had toward the victims of Hitler's monstrous crimes. But therein was their error: they based their support for Israel and Zionism on what Hitler had done to the Jews, rather than on what the Zionists had done for the Jews. To say that such an approach is intellectually and politically impermissable does not denigrate the deep feelings produced by the Holocaust.

Zionism, however, is an ideology, and its chronicles are to be examined with the same critical eye that readers should bring to the history of any political tendency. Zionism is not now, nor was it ever, co-extensive with either Judaism or the Jewish people. The vast majority of Hitler's Jewish victims were not Zionists. It is equally true, as readers are invited to see for themselves, that the majority of the Jews of Poland, in particular, had repudiated Zionism on the eve of the Holocaust, that they abhored the politics of Menachem Begin, in September 1939, one of the leaders of the self-styled 'Zionist-Revisionist' movement in the Polish capital. As an anti-Zionist Jew, the author is inured to the charge that anti-Zionism is equivalent to anti-Semitism and 'Jewish self-hatred,.

It is scarcely necessary to add that all attempts to equate Jews and Zionists, and therefore to attack Jews as such, are criminal, and are to be sternly repelled. There cannot be even the slightest confusion between the struggle against Zionism and hostility to either Jews or Judaism. Zionism thrives on the fears that Jews have of another Holocaust. The Palestinian people are deeply appreciative of the firm support given them by progressive Jews, whether religious-as with Mrs Ruth Blau, Elmer Berger, Moshe Menuhin, or Israel Shahak-or atheist-as with Felicia Langer and Lea Tsemel and others on the left. Neither nationality nor theology nor social theory can, in any way, be allowed to become a stumbling block before the feet of those Jews, in Israel or elsewhere, who are determined to walk with the Palestinian people against injustice and racism. It can be said, with scientific certainty, that, without the unbreakable unity of Arab and Jewish progressives, victory over Zionism is not merely difficult, it is impossible.---"
Citera
2005-03-03, 21:40
  #5
Medlem
quarks avatar
Vad som helst är alltså bevis för konspirationen? Banklån såväl som boykot?

Och vad man än må ha för uppfattingen om Judenrate, så är det väl svårt att säga t ex Kastner i Budapest samarbetade med sin "vän" Himmler år 1944. Det var utpressning.
Citera
2005-03-03, 21:44
  #6
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Recension av en bok, BEYOND INNOCENCE AND REDEMPTION: Confronting the Holocaust and Israeli Power, skriven av en jude, Marc H. Ellis:

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/...ss215-229.html

Citat:
"---While he concludes his book with a forthright and admirable call for "a confrontation with state power and the legitimizing force of that power - Zionism and Holocaust theology," Ellis stops short of fully confronting the ideology of Zionism itself, or of asking skeptical questions about the reality of "the Holocaust."

Ellis seems to suggest that Jews were first faced with an acute moral dilemma about Israel and Zionism in the aftermath of the 1967 war - in which Israel's military forces quickly vanquished larger Arab armies and seized large tracts of Arab land - or perhaps in the wake of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

But as Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal has convincingly established (particularly in The Zionist Connection), the Zionist "original sin" predates these pivotal events by many years. Long before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948, Zionist leaders were insisting that the supranational "Jewish people" had a special destiny and mission. This dubious notion has always been fraught with great peril because it implies that Jews will not and must not be accepted as equal citizens anywhere except in a Zionist state of their own.

Moreover, Zionist contempt for the legitimate rights and concerns of native Palestinians predated the 1967 war, and even the founding of the Israeli state.

Zionism is based on the arrogant notion that people whose ancestors had not lived in the Middle East for centuries (if ever) somehow have a greater right to Palestine than the native people whose forefathers had been living there without interruption for centuries. On the face of it, this view is morally bankrupt.

By what right do Jews have to live in the Middle East at all? Does Ellis accept the notion that the Bible gives Jews the right to disposes the native Palestinians? If not, is he willing to accept that Zionist immigration to Palestine in the years between the two world wars (which the British rulers encouraged, or at least tolerated) was wrong? And just how realistic is Ellis' proposed "democratic" Palestinian state, in which Jews and Arabs would live together as equals? In light of the failure of arguably more promising multi-ethnic experiments - such as Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union - Ellis' vision seems far-fetched and even naive.

And just how real and significant is the Jewish "ethical tradition" that Ellis and other dissident Jewish writers like to cite? Clearly it has not been important enough to stop or even measurably slow down the full-throttle effort of world Jewry on behalf of Israel, or the campaign that Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal has rightly called "Holocaustomania."

All in all, though, this is a important and valuable work. Marc Ellis deserves praise for courageously raising highly important questions, for challenging sacred taboos, and for offering some very helpful - if perhaps unrealistic - solutions.---"
Citera
2005-03-03, 21:50
  #7
Medlem
Ezzelinos avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
Vad som helst är alltså bevis för konspirationen? Banklån såväl som boykot?

Och vad man än må ha för uppfattingen om Judenrate, så är det väl svårt att säga t ex Kastner i Budapest samarbetade med sin "vän" Himmler år 1944. Det var utpressning.

Kontakter och samarbete är inte detsamma som "konspiration", quark, det borde även du kunna begripa om du försöker sätta dig in i ämnet. Francis Nicosias bok Zionism and the Third Reich har jag läst en gång i tiden, tror jag har den tyska utgåvan.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

Citat:
"---In spite of the basic hostility between the Hitler regime and international Jewry, for several years Jewish Zionist and German National Socialist interests coincided. In collaborating with the Zionists for a mutually desirable and humane solution to a complex problem, the Third Reich was willing to make foreign exchange sacrifices, impair relations with Britain and anger the Arabs. Indeed, during the 1930s no nation did more to substantively further Jewish-Zionist goals than Hitler's Germany."
Citera
2005-03-03, 21:57
  #8
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
Vad som helst är alltså bevis för konspirationen? Banklån såväl som boykot?

Och vad man än må ha för uppfattingen om Judenrate, så är det väl svårt att säga t ex Kastner i Budapest samarbetade med sin "vän" Himmler år 1944. Det var utpressning.
"Vad som helst" är ju naturligtvis inte acceptabelt som bevis. Vilken "konspiration " är det du avser? Du uttrycker dig en aning kryptisk enligt min mening men utveckla gärna vad du syftar på.

Om du läser igenom det jag hittills refererat till så hittar du nog inte en tillstymmelse till "utpressning."
Citera
2005-03-03, 22:05
  #9
Medlem
quarks avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av BlizzardKing
"Vad som helst" är ju naturligtvis inte acceptabelt som bevis. Vilken "konspiration " är det du avser? Du uttrycker dig en aning kryptisk enligt min mening men utveckla gärna vad du syftar på.
"Symbios" då. Men mellan vad och vad? Det verkar ganska svepande...

Varför anför du såväl banklån som boykot som tecken på denna "symbios"?
Jag förstår inte riktigt.
Citera
2005-03-03, 22:47
  #10
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av quark
"Symbios" då. Men mellan vad och vad? Det verkar ganska svepande...

Varför anför du såväl banklån som boykot som tecken på denna "symbios"?
Jag förstår inte riktigt.
Vad symbiosen omfattar torde väl framgå av vad trådens namn antyder, nämligen det samarbete som zionister hade med nazister och vilka som finansierade hela kalaset. Jag hoppas du är medveten om att ingen kommer till makten utan ekonomiskt stöd och kanske är det vad du menar med "banklån", även om jag tycker att det mer liknar "`gåvor´ i zionismens och industrins tjänst." Beträffande "boykott" så avser du antagligen den globala judiska bojkott som inleddes 1933 just när Hitler fått makten. Menar du att detta inte skulle ha hänt eller vad? Dina svar är aningen svepande.
Citera
2005-03-04, 08:28
  #11
Medlem
BlizzardKings avatar
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Ezzelino
Recension av en bok, BEYOND INNOCENCE AND REDEMPTION: Confronting the Holocaust and Israeli Power, skriven av en jude, Marc H. Ellis:

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/...ss215-229.html
Denne Alfred Lilienthal tycks vara en hederlig sanningssägare som inte drar sig för att kritisera sitt eget folk och den situation dom har försatt sig i, jag citerar från din post vad Ellis har att säga om Alfreds iakttagelser:
Citat:
"---But as Jewish historian Alfred Lilienthal has convincingly established (particularly in The Zionist Connection), the Zionist "original sin" predates these pivotal events by many years. Long before the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948, Zionist leaders were insisting that the supranational "Jewish people" had a special destiny and mission. This dubious notion has always been fraught with great peril because it implies that Jews will not and must not be accepted as equal citizens anywhere except in a Zionist state of their own.---"
En sanning som är svår att motsäga skulle jag vilja säga. På Lilienthal´s hemsida finns några kapitel att läsa ur hans bok; The Zionist Connection II:

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/
Citera
2005-03-04, 09:21
  #12
Banned
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av Quark
Och vad man än må ha för uppfattingen om Judenrate, så är det väl svårt att säga t ex Kastner i Budapest samarbetade med sin "vän" Himmler år 1944. Det var utpressning.
Citat:
Ursprungligen postat av BlizzardKing
Om du läser igenom det jag hittills refererat till så hittar du nog inte en tillstymmelse till "utpressning."
När jag försöker få grepp om vad Blizzard skrivit, så finner jag den vanliga missuppfattningen av orsak och verkan, skildrandet av marginella företeelser samt t.o.m.(!!!) att judarna under kriget i allra högsta grad "frivilligt" samarbetade med nazisterna.

Ja, de judiska råden i de många städerna i Tyskland, Holland, Polen o.s.v tvingades ju av tyskarna att administrera ghettona, ordna deportationerna, men kan detta kallas frivilligt?

T.o.m. "samarbetet" mellan judiska rådet i Budapest och Himmler i Budapest 1944 var alltså enligt detta synsätt frivilligt! Då Eichmann alltså planerade för deportationerna av 400.000 judar och då det judiska rådet desperat försökte förhindra detta - och t.o.m. med Eichmanns provokativa "förhandlingsbud" försökte få kontakt med engelsmännen.

Vidare förväxlingen av orsak och verkan: Det var väl ändå så att den judiska "kampanjen" mot Hitler-Tyskland insattes i samband med att som det förvarnats om, börjat med restriktioner och bojkotter mot judarna, både i yrkeslivet och affärslivet?

Eller menar Blizzard tvärtom, d.v.s att den judiska "kampanjen" var orsak till nazisternas restriktioner? Det var de verkligen inte, Hitler gjorde ju när han kom till makten 1933 bara ett omedelbart bruk av sin hets mot judarna och som även Mein Kampf skriven 1923, är fylld av. Det fanns alltså gott om förvarningar om vad nazisterna avsåg för judarna.

Vidare är det inte respresentativt för judarna vad Stern-ligan i Jerusalem, som bedrev terrorverksamhet mot engelsmännens styre där (och där engelsmännen alltså inte p.g.a. konflikterna med araberna, ville ha fler judiska invandrare till Palestina), höll på med.

Tvärtom har ju både BlizzardKing och Ezzelino i sina skriverier tidigare mycket uppehållit sig vid att den judiska "världsorganisationen" tillsammans med de väst-allierade i september 1939 förklarade krig mot Tyskland och därför också givetvis var Tysklands fiender. Och detta motiverade ju, som det också har framhållits, tyskarnas krig även mot dem.
Citera
  • 1
  • 2

Stöd Flashback

Flashback finansieras genom donationer från våra medlemmar och besökare. Det är med hjälp av dig vi kan fortsätta erbjuda en fri samhällsdebatt. Tack för ditt stöd!

Stöd Flashback